Working in engine bay

[DCPU]

Hate those things with a passion; think I'd prefer to take my chances with one of these

 

[DaveB]

Hate those things with a passion; think I'd prefer to take my chances with one of these

I am opposed to cutting down trees so I prefer the synthetic carbon neutral option

 

[emax]

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Funny you should post that @Andy, Land Rover have been doing this for years. And if you’re unsure if an evacuation tube gets all the old oil out then wait until the end where I find out.

The disco4 LR4 oil change and filter change 20 minutes with zero mess.

I’m all for a vacuum tube to get the old oil out. I won’t even have to buy and new tools

 

[emax]

That seems indeed convincing.

But the (i.e. at least my) doubts do not question that one can get the oil out more or less completely. You demonstration did however much better than I expected.

You know that I am an old school mechanic and I am not very convinced from the vacuum method. And I still (yes, I'm sometimes a bit stubborn) asking myself, what you would get if the oil came out in a massive stream. If there is no oil left in the engine (which we've seen), how could these two drops flush out any potentially existing sticky residue?

So I still have some reservations when comes to engine screening, i.e.: examination of metal parts and chips which will, if there are some, accumulate in the residue. My feeling is that they can hardly be flushed out through the oil drain with no oil in the pan and will thus remain undetected.

There is a reason that airplane engines have (to my knowledge) to be drained traditionally by regulation.

 

[DCPU]

I'm not sure how true it is but I thought one of the reasons for moving to the vacuum system was it reduced possibility for oil spill/skin contact with the associated risks that frequent and prolonged contact with used engine oil may cause dermatitis and other skin disorders, including skin cancer.

 

[emax]

Yes, and putting a cat in the microwave is also quite dangerous (for the cat). Nannies everywhere.

A story from when my son was in the kindergarten, about 35 years ago:

The day came when they wanted to make something out of paper and cardboard with the children. The children were supposed to bring glue, and there was also a recommendation: a glue without harmful fumes, which was non-toxic and which could be washed out of clothing. Perfect for a child's room.

Unfortunately, it had one big disadvantage: it didn't stick...

I've done projects in both my workshop and professional workshops for decades. Metalwork, woodwork, resin work and the like.

The main thing I learned during this time, and also from the professionals, was that the most toxic materials are unfortunately usually the best from a technical point of view. There isn't much that can top "Blei-Mennige" (red lead, lead tetraoxide - which is banned today). There is almost nothing that can replace "Nitrolack" (nitro paint), and AVGAS 100LL aviation fuel couldn't be replaced until now, although they have spent millions of dollars on research and development to replace it.

Just a few examples - the list is long...

What I want to say is that you cannot achieve the results of high-tech materials without taking the consequences. That means: looking after personal protective equipment, workshops with filter devices and so on. Claiming to use a quick-drying glue (kids aren't patient) while demanding an "organic" glue is nonsense. And TIG welding is of course also possible without a protective air filter. But if you want to practice such high-tech processes, you have to accept the consequences: either pay ++$1000 for a filter device or professional helmet ventilation or prepare for cancer.

As simple as that.

When TIG welding, I only do it with an exhaust air system. When handling oil or aromatic hydrocarbons, I wear gloves and, if necessary, a mask. And when I drain a vehicle's oil, I act accordingly.

My guess is that the manufacturers and workshops primarily want to reduce their effort. I have a feeling what's best for an engine is not in their focus. I don't trust them because at the end of the day it's all about less effort and therefore money. Health is important, but increases the cost of protective gear. And because they don't want to pay for it, they propose cheaper methods that often ignore the core requirements.

A good example is my Mercedes from 2000, a "W203": It rusts like hell. Why? Because in that year, water-based acrylic paints were introduced, but these paints could not actually be processed properly. But it was less harmful to people and the environment.

The latter is ok. But the damage is extensive (many thousands of cars are affected) and could have been avoided with a higher investment in long-term testing prior to launch. The principle is: save money, put a green label on your products and company and then see what happens.

Just my 2ct.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

That seems indeed convincing.

But the (i.e. at least my) doubts do not question that one can get the oil out more or less completely. You demonstration did however much better than I expected.

You know that I am an old school mechanic and I am not very convinced from the vacuum method. And I still (yes, I'm sometimes a bit stubborn) asking myself, what you would get if the oil came out in a massive stream. If there is no oil left in the engine (which we've seen), how could these two drops flush out any potentially existing sticky residue?

So I still have some reservations when comes to engine screening, i.e.: examination of metal parts and chips which will, if there are some, accumulate in the residue. My feeling is that they can hardly be flushed out through the oil drain with no oil in the pan and will thus remain undetected.

There is a reason that airplane engines have (to my knowledge) to be drained traditionally by regulation.

I totally understand the hesitancy for this type of oil change method.

For years industry has been using condition based monitoring to determine overhaul and repair intervals and pumps to evacuate sump tanks of engines. In the case of engines and specifically their oil systems the condition based monitoring aspect is mainly done by spectrographic analysis. By the time that metal particles are visible on a magnetic sump plug for instance, or more commonly with magnetic elements into filtration systems, the damage has already been done and its time to determine when parts are going to be changed (after initial running in periods have been observed).

The vacuum system is only as good as it's designed to be, with the Land Rover supercharged V6 in the video it was astonishingly effective.

To be honest I'm not very bothered about this type of oil extraction system on the Grenadier, if they fit it then that great, if not the so be it, although it does make life much easier.

I'm more concerned about the sump design at extreme angles, with reference to oil starvation and the provision for fuel starvation at extreme angles Land Rover accomplish this by having the electric fuel pump in the tank power 2 Venturis one at the front and rear of the fuel tank and both supplying fuel to the hp fuel pumps on the engine and a special 'deep pan' designed sump.

I raised both these questions at the LA event and received the 'I'll get back to you'

 

[Andy]

Funny you should post that @Andy, Land Rover have been doing this for years. And if you’re unsure if an evacuation tube gets all the old oil out then wait until the end where I find out.

The disco4 LR4 oil change and filter change 20 minutes with zero mess.

I’m all for a vacuum tube to get the old oil out. I won’t even have to buy and new tools

Hi Stu, yes I think as long as the car manufacturer designs it to be evacuated through the dipstick it will remove all oil. I have seen a few videos where it did have some residue left but it is fair to say that those vehicles were not designed to use extraction pump.
I have read that BMW, Merc and LR have been doing it for years. In fact the dealer bulletin I posted was from 1997. I have also watched a video where it shows the extraction method is better for clearing any sludge deposits in the sump, better than the sump plug. this is due to raised lip of the sump plug inside the sump.

I am pretty confident that the B57/58 are designed to use the extraction method. So extraction pump for me. Great video by the way, that should help the doubters!

 

[Overlandplus]

Just came across this one, if anyone is intersted

 

[bigleonski]

Not much room in there for anything else is there. I suppose with the battery under the rear seat all the electrickery that goes with that will live there anyway.
I've always been a bit suss about having batteries in the cabin (I'm assuming they're AGM at least?) Ah well, time to change perception I suppose.

As long as the aux power cables go to places that make sense (no idea why I want 4 on the roof???) then it should be fine and dandy.

 

[Tazzieman]

Ah well, time to change perception I suppose..

A leap of faith towards European engineering. You'll be fine. They have done a lot of testing.

 

[Davman]

Just came across this one, if anyone is intersted

I noticed the bloke who posted this goes by the name of TempestV8.
I remember there was a large contributor on the Landcruiser 200 series forum going by the same handle. Looks like the Grenny has a large follower base.

 

[DaveB]

Not much room in there for anything else is there. I suppose with the battery under the rear seat all the electrickery that goes with that will live there anyway.
I've always been a bit suss about having batteries in the cabin (I'm assuming they're AGM at least?) Ah well, time to change perception I suppose.

As long as the aux power cables go to places that make sense (no idea why I want 4 on the roof???) then it should be fine and dandy.

They are completely sealed and don't give off fumes like old batteries.
I had concerns about Lithium under the seats but someone on here explained that the new Life versions are safe now.

 

[bigleonski]

I noticed the bloke who posted this goes by the name of TempestV8.
I remember there was a large contributor on the Landcruiser 200 series forum going by the same handle. Looks like the Grenny has a large follower base.

If it’s the same guy who was on rhe Overlander forum a hundred years ago, I recall he had a V8 Disco at the time I think.

 

[Logsplitter]

Moll EFB/ enhanced flooded batteries apparently, according to other posts

 

[Logsplitter]

Change that. Moll AGM apparently

 

[DCPU]

It would be nice to be AGM but it's been EFB plus in recent prototypes:

 

[Logsplitter]

Thanks for that. I felt confused I’m sure I’d seen those pictures but other people saying AGM. So I’ll keep my oar out until it’s confirmed when vehicles delivered.
my experience of AGM is with optima starter and dual purpose though, of which we use a few at work on boats and tractors. Is that a few deep discharges and they are knackered.

 

[DCPU]

So I’ll keep my oar out until it’s confirmed when vehicles delivered.

No keep rowing, every "fact" needs fact checking.

Who knows, maybe Ineos have placed a large order for bespoke AGM batteries, and Moll have just mocked up the presentation for the prototypes with some old EFB ones they had to hand?