winch question confirmation...

[frankkk]

I like the built in winch option - but over $4K USD seems a bit high, even the removable winch option that fits into the front hitch plate is a over $3K - there have to be other options out there to consider. I'll go with the front tow mounting plate for now given my need for a winch has yet to be defined.

Most winches out there don't really do what they're supposed to...over extended periods of time. Winches in the 1-2K price bracket are more like toys, designed for a bit of playing with, occasionally.

A half decent winch like the WARN 8274 is 3-4k w/o mounting plate, lead etc. I reckon the 4-5k factory option is not a bad choice, provided it is covered by the same 5-year warranty as the rest.

 

[Greg]

Response from my dealer re front tow plate

Ineos Automotive strongly recommends against using for a removable winch. It is designed for light tow manoeuvring only.

 

[Zimm]

Expendable ~ "of relatively little significance, and therefore able to be abandoned or destroyed", not how I see my winches.


I think they just made a particular choice. I've almost no doubt, given Sir Jim's input, that the winch was on the list of key requirements from the start.


Why do people always exaggerate the weight of a portable winch? If you want to talk about 100lb weights to securely fasten then let's talk about fully loaded fridges.


Like a fixed front winch?


Your loss.

Ok. I'm sorry you're offended, trucks to me are tools, a means to an end, and I'm no one manufacturers fanboy. I came here because it's a specialist sight for the rig, figuring I'd get details, not rumors, and I'm running into a specific, unexpected issue, as I was told this "easy to adapt" truck would have off the shelf front and rear winch options. But as far as vehicle application goes, from now on I'll stick to application sites for those in depth experience necessary discussions. So, I'll just cover this quickly one by one.

1) The truck is the machine, and the winch is there to protect the truck and the environment. Lets think of a lathe as an analogy. The blades aren't cheap, and one does what they can to keep them in good shape, but in the end, during the life and use of the machine they wear out and get replaced. The winch to the truck, is like the blade to the lathe. It's an expendable. In turn, The rope is the expendable to the winch! One works to keep them nice and clean, but in the end, they get tossed if merely for age. I won't use business colloquial terms anymore, so as to not cause any misunderstanding. My bad.

2) They didn't just make a particular choice. Think about it. How do you suppose the standard winch line got to be 100 feet? Why is there a standard fairlead with relatively common drum sizes? Why didn't the market dictate continued use of 150ft like an 8274 or a bellview when it evolved to planetary winches? Why didnt they just keep shrinking the standard spool to 50 feet? Simple.... the market dictated. 150ft is nice but came with the penalty of line wraps, drum size and unit weight. The last 50 ft of line being seldom used insurance. Whereas, a line that's merely 50ft almost never reaches an ideal anchor point in the wild. It far too frequently just isn't enough. No one buys a 50ft unit for this application. The standard is 100 because it's the best all around compromise that remains fully functional. I doubt Sir Jim leaned over the prints and said, "I don't want my winch to use industry standard off the shelf lines or have an industry standard footprint! It only makes sense to have the winch be a bespoke unit in a truck I told the world would be modular and easy to use!".

3) A common warn 9.5xp-s is 68 pounds and the portable cradle is 30.1... 98.1 pounds... I guess technically I exaggerated. A frige typically has a permanent slide with the cargo space built around its use. Thats a straw argument.

4) There are times you'll find yourself nose down in the deep mud, or maybe you've slid sideways on an off camber trail and the tree is up against the bumper. How are you gong to get a 100 pound foot long device into the low front hitch buried in the mud, and then plugged in? Are you going to cut the tree down that impeded your decent, to mount the unit? And what about your line pull angle? What if you have to utilize your spare as fulcrum to lift the front of your truck over the obstacle, like exiting a 6' deep creek bed? Is a tow hitch really a good option for that, or does that seem a bit mickey Mouse given the option to avoid it.

5) What exactly do I lose if don't buy something that can't do the job?

 

[JonSutton]

IMO Red Winches are quality products though less widely available than Warn (for example). I think the big downside of the Grenadier fitted winch is rope length which looks to be <15m based on the one I’ve seen which is very slim. I also don’t like the lack of second battery as std with the winch, which I went for because it is engineered for the truck and carries decent winch warranty. For a longer pull I’d shackle and add length to get closer to 25m if needed and hope the engine can still run - no starting handles with the BM lumps! I’ll probably have to fit a second battery in due course. Red will also have to get their product into USA and Australia as they’ll likely be big markets for decent winches and IA agents will have to carry inventory for the factory fitted winches.

 

[AnD3rew]

Ok. I'm sorry you're offended, trucks to me are tools, a means to an end, and I'm no one manufacturers fanboy. I came here because it's a specialist sight for the rig, figuring I'd get details, not rumors, and I'm running into a specific, unexpected issue, as I was told this "easy to adapt" truck would have off the shelf front and rear winch options. But as far as vehicle application goes, from now on I'll stick to application sites for those in depth experience necessary discussions. So, I'll just cover this quickly one by one.

1) The truck is the machine, and the winch is there to protect the truck and the environment. Lets think of a lathe as an analogy. The blades aren't cheap, and one does what they can to keep them in good shape, but in the end, during the life and use of the machine they wear out and get replaced. The winch to the truck, is like the blade to the lathe. It's an expendable. In turn, The rope is the expendable to the winch! One works to keep them nice and clean, but in the end, they get tossed if merely for age. I won't use business colloquial terms anymore, so as to not cause any misunderstanding. My bad.

2) They didn't just make a particular choice. Think about it. How do you suppose the standard winch line got to be 100 feet? Why is there a standard fairlead with relatively common drum sizes? Why didn't the market dictate continued use of 150ft like an 8274 or a bellview when it evolved to planetary winches? Why didnt they just keep shrinking the standard spool to 50 feet? Simple.... the market dictated. 150ft is nice but came with the penalty of line wraps, drum size and unit weight. The last 50 ft of line being seldom used insurance. Whereas, a line that's merely 50ft almost never reaches an ideal anchor point in the wild. It far too frequently just isn't enough. No one buys a 50ft unit for this application. The standard is 100 because it's the best all around compromise that remains fully functional. I doubt Sir Jim leaned over the prints and said, "I don't want my winch to use industry standard off the shelf lines or have an industry standard footprint! It only makes sense to have the winch be a bespoke unit in a truck I told the world would be modular and easy to use!".

3) A common warn 9.5xp-s is 68 pounds and the portable cradle is 30.1... 98.1 pounds... I guess technically I exaggerated. A frige typically has a permanent slide with the cargo space built around its use. Thats a straw argument.

4) There are times you'll find yourself nose down in the deep mud, or maybe you've slid sideways on an off camber trail and the tree is up against the bumper. How are you gong to get a 100 pound foot long device into the low front hitch buried in the mud, and then plugged in? Are you going to cut the tree down that impeded your decent, to mount the unit? And what about your line pull angle? What if you have to utilize your spare as fulcrum to lift the front of your truck over the obstacle, like exiting a 6' deep creek bed? Is a tow hitch really a good option for that, or does that seem a bit mickey Mouse given the option to avoid it.

5) What exactly do I lose if don't buy something that can't do the job?

The point is that the OEM winch is an option if it suits you tick the box, if it doesn’t, then don’t. You say it was made to be modular, and it is. They made a point of building it and making CAD stuff available to the aftermarket so that it was easy for aftermarket to come up with additional options for those that have a specific need. No doubt there will be aftermarket winch bars that can accommodate your favourite Warn beastie and make you happy. If I was doing stuff that required regular difficult winching I probably wouldn’t have ticked that box either. For me, I like remote touring in Australia and often go solo, the tracks I like are generally not extreme but from time to time you come across something unexpected and it’s nice to have an additional insurance option up your sleeve, usually I can get out with a shovel and some maxtrax and some track building. But for me I put just as much stock in having a vehicle whose crash and road handling dynamics are not unduly compromised by a dirty great piece of steel and mechanical stuff hanging off the front because touring in Australia always involves thousands of kms of highway and road driving as well. Having an OEM bar and winch designed to work with the vehicles safety systems and dynamics is worth more to me than the need for a longer winch rope, I will just throw my extension rope in the rear wheel carrier and know that if that isn’t sufficient which is low likelihood for me, maybe not for you, then the sat phone is my next option

 

[Fidei Defensor]

If you order the high load electrical preparation without the winch you will as I understand it have a 500amp electrical outlet under the bonnet and switches on the roof console. It may still need other stuff done bit I think the basics will be there. I think it’s accurate to say that for the moment at least there won’t be another winch that will fit in a concealed way in the stock bumper. So if the winch is not ordered your only practical option will be an aftermarket bar and winch once someone makes a compatible one.

For me despite the price the winch is good value and will do what I need. When you consider that for that money you get a neat concealed winch that is compatible with all the crash safety specifications of the vehicle, from a manufacturer that is renowned for high quality gear, it is installed, wired and the front suspension is upgraded for the weight so height and handling are not compromised it is a decent deal. By the time you have bought the aftermarket bar ans fittings, paid to have it fitted and wired and upgraded the front springs you will have paid a similar amount if you go for quality gear like ARB and Warn etc the only trade off is the rope length, I would have liked more but for me it will not be a regular use, it is an insurance policy and with a winch extension rope it will do for what I need.

Agreed. For me the biggest drawbacks are the limited length (I am used to 100 ft on my 8274, and have used all of it, with a 100 ft extension at times!) and the fact that it is totally hidden. So you must take real care when spooling at other than optimum angles. The "plusses" are the nice integration to the rest of the vehicle. I queried RED on a couple of points and they said the US bumper will have a viewing port to see the winch drum. That is big news, if true! My Questions:

I have on order a Grenadier with the Red winch installed. I have two Questions, given that the visibility of the spool is only through the fairlead: How will it behave when not perfectly spooled?I heard that the spliced end had to be kept loose, as it would not fit and could jam up? So what happens if, during recovery, the rope gets bunched up at one end of the spool? How do you know if the line is spooled out beyond its safe distance (i.e. 3-4 wraps). Is there a tell-tale on the line to warn you? The total length of the winch line is a bit shorter than I am used to (with my Warn 8274) And answers <<Your questions ideally need to be aimed at INEOS as while we make the winch for them we have no say in the integration into the vehicle. From your email you clearly understand your winching practices and the possible issues when winching. We always recommend the operator of any winch to avoid winching at an angle if at all possible to avoid bunching. If necessary we recommend using a redirect in the line to ensure the rope is fed onto the drum at the optimum angle. However I note from your phone number that you are in the USA and the bumper that is offered to your market does give visibility of the drum from above unlike the European bumper. The winch rope also has a red sleeve fixed in place to the rope near the tail to let the operator know when to stop playing out rope. This is designed so that when in the drivers seat when it comes into view it is time to stop. Equally there is also a label at the spliced end that lets the operator know when to stop winching in.>>