Top Gear: Grenadier vs G Wagon vs Defender vs LC

[Baron von Teuchter]

Let's face it, these are all great vehicles and whichever one you buy you won't be disappointed.

All of them will go further off road than most people will ever take them.

ln the end it's down to personal preference or brand loyalty as much as anything.

l have a Defender but wouldn't say no to a Grenadier, G Wagon or Land Cruiser if one came my way.

Absolutely.

Brand loyalty.
Value (not cost).
Past experience.
Perceived reliability / longevity.
Personal opinion on the aesthetic or image.

All these are going to play a part in anyone’s decision making process and there is no right or wrong answer, a person gets to choose what criteria they use to pick a car.

 

[DaveB]

How DARE you criticize ADAS! It’s precious and perfect and everyone with an ounce of intelligence LOVES it!!! Pistols at dawn, sir.

View attachment 7880310

My ADAS works perfectly.
Never a peep from it.
Occasionally it sings, off key and incorrect words.

 

[Steve.B]

This Thread.

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

You should see all the whining from Defender owners about it.

 

[Steve.B]

The two threads on the same subject probably need to be merged.

 

[255/85]

For the *average* buyer that trades in their car for a new model every five years then any of these vehicles will probably be okay. Long term strenuous use is another matter. Only one manufacturer of the four has used the term "forever car". I honestly wonder which of the four vehicles will still be on the road (or in the bush) 20 years from now. Time will tell but I have my suspicions...

 

[Mountain4x4]

I have to call the insane claim on IFS. Grab your favorite IFS vehicle with 35s, and lets do the Rubicon next summer. But, please bring plenty of spares as they are not stocked for IFS vehicles on the Rubicon. If stuff its tight 1-3 of each item should be safe. I will pay you for your trip if it survives a week in the Sierras with out breaking. I will pay you double if the Grenadier breaks. I have seen a fair number of blown up center sections, but its more all the rest. CVs I have seen so many broken I could not count, tie rods even more, cracked a arms, steering rods, idler arms..............IFS is maybe 50% of the strength of a Jeep set up, and less of the Grenadiers. Yes the articulation is amazing, knowing stuff wont be blowing up once you hit the trail is amazing.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I have to call the insane claim on IFS. Grab your favorite IFS vehicle with 35s, and lets do the Rubicon next summer. But, please bring plenty of spares as they are not stocked for IFS vehicles on the Rubicon. If stuff its tight 1-3 of each item should be safe. I will pay you for your trip if it survives a week in the Sierras with out breaking. I will pay you double if the Grenadier breaks. I have seen a fair number of blown up center sections, but its more all the rest. CVs I have seen so many broken I could not count, tie rods even more, cracked an arms, steering rods, idler arms..............IFS is maybe 50% of the strength of a Jeep set up, and less of the Grenadiers. Yes the articulation is amazing, knowing stuff wont be blowing up once you hit the trail is amazing.

Ooooooohhhhh. This is good. Man puts his money where his mouth is! Love it!

 

[LeeroyJ]

I have to call the insane claim on IFS. Grab your favorite IFS vehicle with 35s, and lets do the Rubicon next summer. But, please bring plenty of spares as they are not stocked for IFS vehicles on the Rubicon. If stuff its tight 1-3 of each item should be safe. I will pay you for your trip if it survives a week in the Sierras with out breaking. I will pay you double if the Grenadier breaks. I have seen a fair number of blown up center sections, but its more all the rest. CVs I have seen so many broken I could not count, tie rods even more, cracked a arms, steering rods, idler arms..............IFS is maybe 50% of the strength of a Jeep set up, and less of the Grenadiers. Yes the articulation is amazing, knowing stuff wont be blowing up once you hit the trail is amazing.

I don't think the Rubicon is the yard-stick to measure these vehicles. Very very very few of the vehicles sold for any of these four, will ever see conditions like the Rubicon. Some will see conditions like those in the test, but most will never see anything rougher than forest roads or some beach driving.

Throw enough money at the LC, IG, or G wagon, they could all three be modified to do the Rubicon. I don't know if you could get the new Defender Rubicon capable given the limitations of front and rear IFS and the air suspension. Maybe if the suspension was completely re-done.

I've done the Rubicon by mountain bike several times and given the broken vehicle parts scattered along the trail, I won't be taking my IG on it, even if it is capable.

 

[bigleonski]

I think it’s a simple equation.
If you are going to do an occasional trip up into the mountains on dirt roads or visits to the beach then every single one of these vehicles will do the job well.

And if you want to get gnarly in the rough stuff every couple of months they will also do the job very well with some better at some things than the others.

But if you want something that can handle harsh unforgiving country on a regular basis or for weeks on end and that is built tough to take it, your choice gets narrower.

This sort of video comparison doesn’t cater for that discussion.

 

[landmannnn]

That 7 mile track (called Strata Florida) is great fun, but not technically challenging for any 4x4 with a low box.
You could drive it easily in a 1940's Jeep. Last time out someone with a 130 Defender plus kids breezed through it.
Saying that, fair play to TG for showing real world off road. I hate those mostly Australian reviews where they drive over a small bump, then do donuts and 0 to 60 comparisons.

 

[Steve.B]

That 7 mile track (called Strata Florida) is great fun, but not technically challenging for any 4x4 with a low box.
You could drive it easily in a 1940's Jeep. Last time out someone with a 130 Defender plus kids breezed through it.
Saying that, fair play to TG for showing real world off road. I hate those mostly Australian reviews where they drive over a small bump, then do donuts and 0 to 60 comparisons.

That Australian reviewer you are referring to where they drive over small bumps is car expert, related to car wow in England, they should both stick with road cars, their 4x4 stuff is total "bollocks" as you English would say.

 

[Steve.B]

At least the Toyota Land Cruiser forums love Top Gear's comparison, and why wouldn't they, as long as Toyota keep's on writing those cheques to Top Gear they will keep winning.

 

[NQ94]

Looking at the sale and registration statistics that people publish on various forums it looks like Grenadier or QM is not selling as well as expected throughout Europe. LC250 may be better suited to these regions.

 

[Grenadian]

I have a Wrangler Rubicon 23. I got my IG on October 23rd.
Strictly speaking, I bought the "look" of a car that I like and a certain level of "function" of a car,
not a "mechanical assembly" of a steering wheel, tires, engine, drive shaft, and differential gear, etc.
My car that I bought like this cannot fly at supersonic speeds in the sky, cannot freely enter and exit the water,
and does not sing beautifully like a bird.
A Toyota or a Ferrari may be a better car than the IG.
Nevertheless, I do not regret buying the IG.

 

[landmannnn]

Looking at the sale and registration statistics that people publish on various forums it looks like Grenadier or QM is not selling as well as expected throughout Europe. LC250 may be better suited to these regions.

Land Cruisers have never been super popular in Europe compared to home grown vehicles.

Of the 12 million car sales in Europe, half are sold in Germany, France and UK.
In Germany (where off road driving is virtually illegal) a BMW X is the default. The French don't drive SUVs. In the UK the Defender is the default.

 

[lightning]

For the *average* buyer that trades in their car for a new model every five years then any of these vehicles will probably be okay. Long term strenuous use is another matter. Only one manufacturer of the four has used the term "forever car". I honestly wonder which of the four vehicles will still be on the road (or in the bush) 20 years from now. Time will tell but I have my suspicions...

This will depend on the owner as much as anything.
For instance l expect Grenadiers will last indefinitely (like the old model Defender or Jeep) because they are owned by enthusiasts who will keep them going.

With the new Defender there's already quite a few companies offering cheaper fixes for some of the known faults such as DRL failure.

lf a vehicle doesn't have an "enthusiast" following then it will likely get scrapped when it gets older and needs more attention. Owners have no attachment to the vehicle and just buy a new one. Aftermarket companies won't produce spares or fixes for faults that occur.

 

[255/85]

lf a vehicle doesn't have an "enthusiast" following then it will likely get scrapped when it gets older and needs more attention. Owners have no attachment to the vehicle and just buy a new one. Aftermarket companies won't produce spares or fixes for faults that occur.

That's a fair call. No one but a few oddballs get all atwitter at the prospect of modding and maintaining a 4X4 Tercal much beyond the warranty. Meanwhile 50 yea old Land Cruisers (along with Land Rovers) have generally continued to rise in value - and for good reason.

don't know if you could get the new Defender Rubicon capable given the limitations of front and rear IFS and the air suspension. Maybe if the suspension was completely re-done.

I've done the Rubicon by mountain bike several times and given the broken vehicle parts scattered along the trail, I won't be taking my IG on it, even if it is capable.

It's been done but it wasn't pretty. Or inexpensive.

New Defender does the Rubicon.

See you can do the Rubicon Trail in a new Defender with hardly any mods. I wonder how the Grenadier will go.

www.theineosforum.com

 

[mcdoogs]

The new Defender has had a subframe lift available for a few years now. The 5" subframe lift runs around $9-10K in parts and isn't a diy job unless you have access to a full shop/tools that can handle dropping the subframe. So probably 12-13k installed.

The cool thing is that it keep the air suspension factory travel/characteristics. Obviously lifting the center of gravity 5" is going to change how it drives on road and off. I talked to a guy in Moab on a 4" subframe lift + true 35s who said it's a bit tippy which makes sense. Anyways, a little pricey but nowhere near portal axle costs.

Now if I had kept my Defender, I'd have done a modest 2" subframe lift (~$8k) and 35s with a little trimming. Any more and it sacrifices the strengths of the platform in favor of rock crawling imo. And I don't even like rock crawling. Stock suspension, rock sliders, and 33s handled all the fun popular trails around Moab just fine.

Anyways, back to the video, the bald guy driving the defender didn't seem to know the car at all and even worse seemed like he'd never been offroad before. Like you HAVE TO let the Defender's terrain response engineering cook. Panicking as soon as a tire lifts is bush league.