Steering Solutions?

[LWA55DAL]

It's all "Return to Center". Because the truck doesn't return to center well it makes the truck dodgy. Normally in a gentle highway turn you ad pressure to make the turn and then you release the pressure and the truck comes back to center. My truck and many others apparently do not behave this way. This combined with a relatively large amount of dead band in the steering wheel makes the truck dodgy. It wants to dart around which ever way it was last pointed either by the steering wheel or a defect in the road. It's very much how old school full hydro steering feels.

I will agree with the characteristics you described when 1st took delivery but at 5k+ it started to break-in (the steering stabilizer) and once I did the alignment and asked the dealer to go a little heavy on the caster - it handles great. The Return to Center is not perfect and it jumps, but that is the steering stabilizer. It’s VERY still and oversized for the application compared to similar vehicles.

It’s a bit of a joke, but try turning on the lockers. The IG handles amazing with the front lockers and doesn’t kill you with steering feedback. This is the compromise that INEOS made in the design. Try a triple locked 80series Land Cruiser and it’s miserable. Steering jumps all over the place and very hard to try and even turn the wheel. The IG on the other hand - was designed to be driven locked and it works great. The recirculating ball also causes a bit of steering play, but this was another compromise to make the steering robust and the only way to really do it in a solid front axle application.

I know the “road manors” were compromised, but at the same time - there are big advantages that all other auto manufactures have compromised on that make the IG a true off road vehicle.

 

[Dokatd]

There are other types of steering gears for this type of application. Worm and sector is a very reliable setup. It's what Rovers used. It's much easier to adjust the free play as you just push the sector shaft into the worm. This would have given the same reliability, less complexity, more serviceability and better feel. I have to assume there is some reason Ineos chose the recirc design, but I couldn't guess why. Maybe they are easier with loss of power?

Try rebuilding a recirc box, I have and they are a bitch. Sector and worm is brutally easy.

 

[mcdoogs]

By the time I hit 250-300 miles I stopped even noticing the steering. Everyone learns at different speeds ofc

I have a rule for myself that I don't modify my new cars' important shit (drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc) until I at least hit the recommended engine break in mileage (500 for the Grenadier). By that time I'd forgotten what I disliked about the steering initally coming from a new Defender. My guess is most people would have the same experience. After all what are you going to do, fight the steering or learn and adapt?

 

[Tom109]

It wants to dart around which ever way it was last pointed either by the steering wheel or a defect in the road. It's very much how old school full hydro steering feels.

I don’t get this at all. One year ago I drove off the dealer lot and never looked back. This week I dropped it off for service and left in a loaner with 2400 miles. It felt exactly like mine and I drove off with one hand.

I did make a mental note of your descriptions and will make a conscious effort to evaluate them against this loaner and my own Gren on pick-up.

 

[Zimm]

. The most similar steering feel to the Grenadier that I have experience driving would be a newer 1 ton+ truck (Ford F350/F450/F550).

Unfortunately, No.

I own them. I write the check, so I'm always the first guy to drive the new truck. Dana super 60's return to center in Fords.

Once again, YES, people will get used to it in short order, so if that's the only issue stopping you, don't let it, but the reason everyone that drives one notices the steering, is because it literally, and I do mean literally, drives like a model "T", which was designed before caster angle was incorporated into cars for return to center. No one alive today has driven a new passenger car that didn't have this feature, hence its just assumed. People think it's natural. There's a reason the experienced salesmen mention it to walk in buyers before the first drive. It's the only truck I have that can aggravate the slap tear in my left shoulder.

 

[Dokatd]

By the time I hit 250-300 miles I stopped even noticing the steering. Everyone learns at different speeds ofc

I have a rule for myself that I don't modify my new cars' important shit (drivetrain, suspension, steering, etc) until I at least hit the recommended engine break in mileage (500 for the Grenadier). By that time I'd forgotten what I disliked about the steering initally coming from a new Defender. My guess is most people would have the same experience. After all what are you going to do, fight the steering or learn and adapt?

I gave it a couple thousand miles. Never got better, certainly not anything of note anyways. And "what are you going to do", you left off modify the thing so it drives right. I no longer fight the steering, my steering issues are effectively 100% solved by making some very minor changes to the truck.

I have switched back and forth from stock stabilizer, no stabilizer and the Fox ATS adjustable stabilizer. Hands down the best solution is the Fox, though I did enjoy my truck with no stabilizer at all minus the threat of death wobble. You need just enough dampening in the steering to prevent an oscillation in the steering.

I don’t get this at all. One year ago I drove off the dealer lot and never looked back. This week I dropped it off for service and left in a loaner with 2400 miles. It felt exactly like mine and I drove off with one hand.

I did make a mental note of your descriptions and will make a conscious effort to evaluate them against this loaner and my own Gren on pick-up.

Luckily I'm not the only person complaining about this. And quite honestly maybe this is a defect in some trucks and not others. Maybe the front axle has a geometry defect that's exacerbated by the overly stiff stabilizer. Or maybe I'm just picky.

 

[LWA55DAL]

I gave it a couple thousand miles. Never got better, certainly not anything of note anyways. And "what are you going to do", you left off modify the thing so it drives right. I no longer fight the steering, my steering issues are effectively 100% solved by making some very minor changes to the truck.

I have switched back and forth from stock stabilizer, no stabilizer and the Fox ATS adjustable stabilizer. Hands down the best solution is the Fox, though I did enjoy my truck with no stabilizer at all minus the threat of death wobble. You need just enough dampening in the steering to prevent an oscillation in the steering.

Luckily I'm not the only person complaining about this. And quite honestly maybe this is a defect in some trucks and not others. Maybe the front axle has a geometry defect that's exacerbated by the overly stiff stabilizer. Or maybe I'm just picky.

I’d make certain your alignment is correct. Mine was 1.5 deg and that was on the low end of the spec. Once adjusted to 2.1 deg it made a world of difference.

 

[Tom109]

Luckily I'm not the only person complaining about this. And quite honestly maybe this is a defect in some trucks and not others. Maybe the front axle has a geometry defect that's exacerbated by the overly stiff stabilizer. Or maybe I'm just picky.

When I said I “don’t get this at all”, I mean I haven’t experienced it. I certainly understand others have, but in my limited pool of only driving three Grenadiers, I haven’t.

 

[Dokatd]

I’d make certain your alignment is correct. Mine was 1.5 deg and that was on the low end of the spec. Once adjusted to 2.1 deg it made a world of difference.

That was the first thing I did. I had the caster set as high as they could get it. Oddly enough it was just still within spec. I was the first to request this at the DFW Ineos dealer. The results were noticeable, but barely a fraction of what removing or changing the stabilizer has done.

 

[Rbha311]

Appreciate all your replies. What I’m hearing is a common theme that most people have just gotten used to it and any aftermarket solutions either haven’t been introduced or aren’t very effective. Whilst a little disappointing as I really had my heart set on this car. I cannot compromise the highway handling as this is where this vehicle will predominantly be driven.

Thank you

 

[Clark Kent]

Appreciate all your replies. What I’m hearing is a common theme that most people have just gotten used to it and any aftermarket solutions either haven’t been introduced or aren’t very effective. Whilst a little disappointing as I really had my heart set on this car. I cannot compromise the highway handling as this is where this vehicle will predominantly be driven.

Thank you

You've made your decision and I respect that but your summation is not accurate. For sure there is an element of driver conditioning, just-like-any-new-vehicle, but the real difference comes from getting some proper km on the clock.

I had a regular catch up coffee with my agent today and he said the same thing. He drives their company Grenadier occasionally and notices the difference in how it drives each time due to the accumulated usage by others. Their MY23 Grenadier has 22,000km on it. Like me, he is convinced the vehicle really settles in from around 15,000km and is a different vehicle to drive.
My MY23 ticked over 25,000km this week and I cannot fault it on the highway. One hand, two fingers, right elbow up on the door sill, very comfortable cruiser. It tracks straight and steers nicely. That same sentiment has been repeatedly expressed across the forum. Nevertheless it sounds like you have been swayed by a minority of negative opinions so you aren't willing to take it on. Ok, we're all different and have different expectations.

If you thought a Grenadier was a good choice for the Kempsey property then don't abandon that idea. I recommend you try and get access to a vehicle with at least 15-20,000km on it and reassess. It might validate your decision or even change your mind. You have nothing to lose.

There's Sydney-based members in the forum. Use the member map and try DMing a few. Most owners are enthusiasts and will be happy to talk about their experience.

Failing all that, good luck with your choices!

 

[mcdoogs]

Appreciate all your replies. What I’m hearing is a common theme that most people have just gotten used to it and any aftermarket solutions either haven’t been introduced or aren’t very effective. Whilst a little disappointing as I really had my heart set on this car. I cannot compromise the highway handling as this is where this vehicle will predominantly be driven.

Thank you

I have only had mine for a few weeks and its winter here in the greater Boston area so it's been exclusively driven on roads and highways somewhat similar in traffic to congestion to those in and around Sydney I'd imagine. It's well mannered for a car with a solid front axle and easy to get comfortable with because it's very predictible. Like others have said, I have less than 1k on the odometer and I'm able to cruise at highway speeds relaxed with a couple fingers holding the wheel straight. A lot is made of the return to center which could be better, but it also tracks pretty straight even over the relatively rough winter-abused highway surfaces we have here.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend it to a friend if the buyer wants it as a highway tourer, family people mover, etc. That has less to do with steering though and more to do with the lack of convenience and safety features that are standard/available in every competitor (ie adaptive cruise, blind spot monitor, keyless entry, interior storage, decent backup camera, etc) and bad range/fuel efficiency. Good luck!

I read an analogy I liked very much but I cant remember where: The Grenadier is the waxed canvas of vehicles. It works so well as an analogy. They are both attractive yet anachronistic expressions of luxury utilitarianism and at their very best in a fairly narrow range of conditions, otherwise outperformed by more modern alternatives. For the record, I own several waxed canvas/cotton pieces of outerwear that I love, I dont consider this analogy negative towards the Grenadier

 

[Zimm]

For the record, I own several waxed canvas/cotton pieces of outerwear

whew... we were concerned all you had waxed was your underwear.

They recently started placing massive speed humps throughout pittsburgh, they prevent me from even doing 10mph in a 25mph zone in the MG, but to give the gren credit for a solid axle, it takes those bumps head on without issue. Much better than any solid axle truck I've bought or built. I do 35 now just to spite the fuckers. I'll speed up and watch to see if the guy behind me tries to follow at that speed. They always back off after one hump. SO yea, it isn't all bad news. Some characteristics excel.

 

[drof14850]

Like a few others on this forum I am running on king shocks and stabiliser, my steering now is slightly lighter than standard with more return to centre.
No adjustments made to alignment and no lift, running on 18 inch KO2s with standard alloys.
Very happy with it road manners, especially when towing.
Although you have to remember what the vehicle was originally designed for.

 

[Rick]

Hi everyone,


I’m considering purchasing an Ineos Grenadier, but I’d like to know if anyone has tried any aftermarket products or modifications to improve its handling characteristics. Are there suspension upgrades, sway bars, or other enhancements that have made a noticeable difference?

Took one out for a test drive and it slightly terrified me. As I’ll be doing considerable distances on highways, I really want to know if anyone’s successfully invented a product that reduce the need for constant steering input and increased feel.

I’d love to hear your experiences and recommendations before I make my decision.

Edit: Thank you for all the wonderful feedback. Many people are suggesting I consider looking for another vehicle. I should mention that I did take the Grenadier on an extended test drive, as our local dealer insists on at least an hour-long drive before making a decision. I absolutely fell in love with the car and enjoyed driving it on local roads, but I’m still unsure about its performance on the highway. Perhaps it’s something I’ll get used to, but I’m hesitant to spend six figures on a “what if.”

Living on the South Coast of NSW, I often travel between Wollongong and Sydney, where the highway has long, sweeping bends at speed, and at this point, I’d feel quite uncomfortable tackling those in this car. I have plenty of reasons why I really want to buy this vehicle, but to return to my original question: if anyone has found a viable aftermarket solution for the steering, it would make the decision much easier.

I have done 60,000 km in 18 months in my Trialmaster. Once you get used to it you will realize its suspension is what makes it so incredible - don’t touch anything!!

 

[holdmybeer]

Steering solution:

(Disclaimer: I have the slender biceps and forearms of a teenage girl. And the Grenadier steers just fine. )

 

[Gaffer]

I have the exact opposite problem. I got used to the Grenadier steering soon enough but, after that, I was a menace driving my wife's BMW X3: oversteered and over corrected like closing time at Hildy's Tavern.

 

[parb]

Fair warning, I'm going to use some fighting words...

Background
I had my Grenadier for 2,000 miles or so and I felt that the steering was fatiguing, increasing cognitive load while constantly requiring adjustment for straight travel. At that point I installed the fox steering dampener and it made a significant improvement in cognitive load for extended driving.

2,000 miles later I made a vehicle alignment, that further improved the steering and reduced driver fatigue. I've now driven a few thousand miles with the fox damper and the a great alignment on my car and I've been very satisfied.

My point of view
We can debate this ad nauseum but this is what I wanted, and largely interesting, out of the modification;
Stability: A properly functioning return-to-center mechanism helps maintain a straight driving path, preventing unintended drifting.
Driver fatigue: A steering wheel that readily returns to center reduces the effort needed to maintain a straight course, decreasing driver fatigue.

And to a lesser extent,
Emergency maneuvers: In emergency situations, drivers need to quickly turn the wheel and then quickly return it to center to regain control.

Is it real or not?
For those who say it's imaginary, I think this isn't really a well formed argument. We can measure the effect and it's not placebo. Lots of videos and even more testimony either prove or testify to the effect.

For those who say you'll get used to it, perhaps true but to me this argument smacks of the battered (woman) syndrome. The steering still isn't great, you just convinced yourself to ignore it through conditioning.

Bombs away!

 

[Jiman01]

I think it must vary from truck to truck based on rolling improvements throughout the year. My ‘24 fall build will literally track down a straight road with no hands and has very little slop in the wheel.

The return to center and turning radius still requires a lot of work in parking lots and other tight spaces. The little bit of extra rotation you get if you keep turning the wheel past when it first stops, helps shorted the radius by a few feet.

What confuses the heck out of me is when I have all the lockers engaged, the steering wheel returns to center with authority, like a “normal” car would on pavement. I first noticed this when I was driving down a gravel road and wanted to play around with the lockers and hi/low gears. Anyone else notice this? Does anyone know why it will return to center “normally” when the lockers are engaged (I'm assuming its the front one that matters) and/or why it won’t transfer over to when the lockers are disengaged?

 

[C-Mack]

The stronger centering force is simply the result of both front wheels being locked together. Normally on a turn (unlocked diff) each front wheel can freely travel the arc in needs when turned. Therefore, with the diff locked the outside wheel is trying to travel farther than the inside one and effectively can’t because they are locked to the same rotational speed and the outside wheel skips/skids slightly across the ground and generates a drag force pulling the steering wheel in that direction.

Off-road and on low grip surfaces you can still steer somewhat but will feel the centering force. On dry solid road surfaces (of which you should never have the front locked or any diffs locked for that matter) it is very noticeable and can actually cause damage or an accident due to the limited steering effectiveness.