Steering differences

[CrazyOldMan]

Huh - OK. Just picked up my Grenadier at the dealer in Chicago from its 12k/1 year service. They got their shop demo QM last week, and let me drive it this afternoon- they said I was the first customer to drive it. Really nice spec - MM Trialmaster w red chassis, safari windows and winch. Here’s what surprised me - the steering was different. Still the same basic lock-to-lock turning ratio, bigger turning radius, stiffer suspension, slightly less return to center - but less play in the wheel and much more direct response. You know that dumb thing reviewers do on YouTube with the Grenadier where they theatrically yank the wheel around to show how loose it is? In this QM, on a straightaway, if you moved the wheel even slightly, it would respond. The dealer sales rep came for the ride and he noticed it too. We all sat down and discussed it when we got back. I don’t understand. Did they do something to the steering damper? Change the caster settings? Tire pressure? I don’t think it can be just the longer wheelbase. That wouldn’t make any sense. And it’s not break-in - it only had 100 miles on it, total. Anyhow, felt great, much better visibility out the back, very tight squeeze in the back seat, but it’s awesome. Grenadier is a better fit for me and doesn’t carry the US chicken tax penalty- but it was a lot of fun, and I really appreciate Knauz letting me try it out for fun.

 

[LWA55DAL]

I put 9k miles on my TM and had the tires rotated and an alignment done last month. The factory caster was at 1.5 (low end of the spec) and it was adjusted to 2.1 on both sides. This made a tremendous difference in handling and that’s running the BFG’s at 40 PSI vs 32/34. From what I have read - many of the Grenadiers came from the factory on the low end of the caster adjustment and I’d bet that INEOS changed this for both models. The wheelbase will have a minor impact, but I’d adjust the caster to something over 2.

 

[C-Mack]

I could be wrong but I highly doubt there is any meaningful mechanical changes to the steering components. If anything, this specific example may just have different toe settings. Or worse, incorrect toe/caster settings right out-of-the-box making the steering feel a bit different. Either way interesting observations and would be curious to see if persists across more vehicles as they roll out which then might indicate something has indeed been changed.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I could be wrong but I highly doubt there is any meaningful mechanical changes to the steering components. If anything, this specific example may just have different toe settings. Or worse, incorrect toe settings right out-of-the-box making the steering feel a bit different. Either way interesting observations and would be curious to see if persists across more vehicles as they roll out which then might indicate something has indeed been changed.

But I don’t think it’s an anomaly- you guys have seen all the clown stuff on YouTube talking about the steering play. They all pull the same stunt. It would just be impossible on the QM I drove this afternoon.

 

[C-Mack]

But I don’t think it’s an anomaly- you guys have seen all the clown stuff on YouTube talking about the steering play. They all pull the same stunt. It would just be impossible on the QM I drove this afternoon.

Agreed, we have seen all the Youtube goons sawing at the wheel trying to prove a point about how bad it performs. It’s entirely possible all the components are just the same but maybe running slightly different geometry on this model or they’ve changed the shim specifications inside the steering box itself to improve on center feel and tightness… anything is indeed possible.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Agreed, we have seen all the Youtube goons sawing at the wheel trying to prove a point about how bad it performs. It’s entirely possible all the components are just the same but maybe running slightly different geometry on this model or they’ve changed the shim specifications inside the steering box itself to improve on center feel and tightness… anything is indeed possible.

I don’t know - like you said, will be interesting to see if this is a common observation. Knauz wasn’t aware of any component differences or anything different they may have done - but the guy riding shotgun noticed it as well, and he had been driving it for a couple days ahead of time. He was surprised when I mentioned it, said he felt the same but hadn’t been sure, so then we started experimenting and it really seemed to be a clear difference. I have no explanation for this - nor do they. I have the Fox damper on my Grenadier - the QM had less play and was more direct, either than stock when I picked it up a year ago, as well as after the Fox swap. Your shim idea might have some merit - this QM was dead on at 12:00 and I got steering response with very small movements off center.

 

[C-Mack]

I don’t know - like you said, will be interesting to see if this is a common observation. Knauz wasn’t aware of any component differences or anything different they may have done - but the guy riding shotgun noticed it as well, and he had been driving it for a couple days ahead of time. He was surprised when I mentioned it, said he felt the same but hadn’t been sure, so then we started experimenting and it really seemed to be a clear difference. I have no explanation for this - nor do they. I have the Fox damper on my Grenadier - the QM had less play and was more direct, either than stock when I picked it up a year ago, as well as after the Fox swap. Your shim idea might have some merit - this QM was dead on at 12:00 and I got steering response with very small movements off center.

Hell, it could just be the general variability of these vehicles as each one is built which seems very hard to believe but stranger things can happen eh? It’s like the different descriptions/experiences we share with all the good folks on this forum with their own vehicles. It ranges from… “It steers like the Queen Mary with rubber bands attached to the rudder.” all the way to… “I don’t see what all the fuss is about mine drives just fine.”

Hard to pin down all the variables but certainly the steering is a real problem for some and could be a manifestation of a design issue. Like you said, if more vehicles show up as new production rolls on and share improved steering characteristics them something must have changed and that could only be a good thing right?

 

[ecohen2]

I think all the dealers are changing the alignment from the original factory since mine also was significantly different and my power steering makes no noise now...

 

[CRH]

I had a QM as a courtesy vehicle last year, overall it felt a bit tighter but it only had about 100 miles on it whereas mine had about 15000 at the time. It was on 18" wheels but both K02's and was a petrol against my diesel. I wouldn't have said I noticed the steering being any different, it just felt like a slightly better ride due to the longer wheelbase and quieter without the big open space.
For some odd reason it didn't seem to have DAB radio which is very peculiar nowadays. Maybe it's because they have nowhere for the aerial or some odd spec?

 

[HereinDaRockies]

poor engineering & build tolerance

 

[HereinDaRockies]

I think all the dealers are changing the alignment from the original factory since mine also was significantly different and my power steering makes no noise now...

Huh? What was done? You’re saying the procedure immediately resolved your ps pump whine too?

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Hell, it could just be the general variability of these vehicles as each one is built which seems very hard to believe but stranger things can happen eh? It’s like the different descriptions/experiences we share with all the good folks on this forum with their own vehicles. It ranges from… “It steers like the Queen Mary with rubber bands attached to the rudder.” all the way to… “I don’t see what all the fuss is about mine drives just fine.”

Hard to pin down all the variables but certainly the steering is a real problem for some and could be a manifestation of a design issue. Like you said, if more vehicles show up as new production rolls on and share improved steering characteristics them something must have changed and that could only be a good thing right?

Yeah it’s possible this is just unit to unit variation- not sure, but it was a significant difference

 

[wolftimj]

Basically same experience with a service loaner last week. The steering was much much better.

 

[HereinDaRockies]

Basically same experience with a service loaner last week. The steering was much much better.

Damn I wonder if there is a universal qualitative indicator of good/better…

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Damn I wonder if there is a universal qualitative indicator of good/better…

I’ve often wondered in our little community rage fests, how much is subjective (prior experience and expectations) and how much is unit variability? I literally only drove one test series in a pre-production offroad event, and then picked up mine once it was ready last spring. No on-road test drives or comparisons. Haven’t even had loaner units - always drop mine off when I’m headed out of town and pick it up when I return. So maybe some of you aren’t the whiny snowflakes I think you are. Maybe your AC and steering pump really is out to kill you. All I know is that the drive today in the QM - if that were reviewed by one of those morons on YouTube, they might gripe about the turning radius or return to center, they might call it “ponderous,” but there would be no antics or complaints about wheel play. If they tried it, they would get an involuntary lesson in off-road capability.

 

[USAFN1985]

Huh - OK. Just picked up my Grenadier at the dealer in Chicago from its 12k/1 year service. They got their shop demo QM last week, and let me drive it this afternoon- they said I was the first customer to drive it. Really nice spec - MM Trialmaster w red chassis, safari windows and winch. Here’s what surprised me - the steering was different. Still the same basic lock-to-lock turning ratio, bigger turning radius, stiffer suspension, slightly less return to center - but less play in the wheel and much more direct response. You know that dumb thing reviewers do on YouTube with the Grenadier where they theatrically yank the wheel around to show how loose it is? In this QM, on a straightaway, if you moved the wheel even slightly, it would respond. The dealer sales rep came for the ride and he noticed it too. We all sat down and discussed it when we got back. I don’t understand. Did they do something to the steering damper? Change the caster settings? Tire pressure? I don’t think it can be just the longer wheelbase. That wouldn’t make any sense. And it’s not break-in - it only had 100 miles on it, total. Anyhow, felt great, much better visibility out the back, very tight squeeze in the back seat, but it’s awesome. Grenadier is a better fit for me and doesn’t carry the US chicken tax penalty- but it was a lot of fun, and I really appreciate Knauz letting me try it out for fun.

I test drove one as well and the steering play was less.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I test drove one as well and the steering play was less.

It would be interesting to find out if more recent Grenadier builds were similar - is this about Grenadier vs Quartermaster, older vs newer, or just random walk? No clue. So that’s 2 guys who say the same thing - but one from Texas so he counts his vote for double ;o)

 

[LC0013]

I test drove a QM on Monday at Sewell Ineos in Plano TX. Steering was same as my Grenadier but, the QM seemed a bit quicker. Could have been me as I would rather go full throttle in a Dealer rig than my own.