Some extra degrees in the steering resulting in a smaller turning circle

[Deekayy]

Hi all,
we all know the discussions about the steering feel and turning circle. But this is not what this post is about.
I have an information to share and would like to hear your comments.

When I picked up my Trialmaster at the dealership they showed my the following "trick" (I don't know if it really is one)...
- You turn your steering wheel to one stop (left or right, does not matter): your info screen will display your steering angle, in my case 33°
- then you grab the wheel tightly with both hands and turn it further, yes, against the resistance and yes, it takes some force
- then - miraculously - you can turn the wheel further, in my case up to 38°
- and yes, the turning circle is smaller then
- I did not yet measure the effect, but it feels a bit as if it really was smaller then the specification says (13,5 meters)
- the resistance becomes lower with the time

Now my questions:
- Did you get this advice also? Did your dealers tell you?
- does it work in your cars?
- can anybody explain, what happens with the car when doing so?
- And, most importantly: is it good for the car, should it really be done?

Thanks in advance for your comments, David

 

[[ Adam ]]

I've noticed that once I initiate a turn at full lock, somewhere in the first 20% or so of the turn, the wheel tucks in a few more degrees as I go along. Perhaps this is similar to what you are experiencing.

I've never done it while watching off road mode.

 

[NoAge Hunter]

Hi all,
we all know the discussions about the steering feel and turning circle. But this is not what this post is about.
I have an information to share and would like to hear your comments.

When I picked up my Trialmaster at the dealership they showed my the following "trick" (I don't know if it really is one)...
- You turn your steering wheel to one stop (left or right, does not matter): your info screen will display your steering angle, in my case 33°
- then you grab the wheel tightly with both hands and turn it further, yes, against the resistance and yes, it takes some force
- then - miraculously - you can turn the wheel further, in my case up to 38°
- and yes, the turning circle is smaller then
- I did not yet measure the effect, but it feels a bit as if it really was smaller then the specification says (13,5 meters)
- the resistance becomes lower with the time

Now my questions:
- Did you get this advice also? Did your dealers tell you?
- does it work in your cars?
- can anybody explain, what happens with the car when doing so?
- And, most importantly: is it good for the car, should it really be done?

Hi all,
we all know the discussions about the steering feel and turning circle. But this is not what this post is about.
I have an information to share and would like to hear your comments.

When I picked up my Trialmaster at the dealership they showed my the following "trick" (I don't know if it really is one)...
- You turn your steering wheel to one stop (left or right, does not matter): your info screen will display your steering angle, in my case 33°
- then you grab the wheel tightly with both hands and turn it further, yes, against the resistance and yes, it takes some force
- then - miraculously - you can turn the wheel further, in my case up to 38°
- and yes, the turning circle is smaller then
- I did not yet measure the effect, but it feels a bit as if it really was smaller then the specification says (13,5 meters)
- the resistance becomes lower with the time

Now my questions:
- Did you get this advice also? Did your dealers tell you?
- does it work in your cars?
- can anybody explain, what happens with the car when doing so?
- And, most importantly: is it good for the car, should it really be done?

Thanks in advance for your comments, David

Thanks in advance for your comments, David

Hi David
Yes I got the same advice and really it works.
I do it from time to time when needed….
However, I ask myself the same question: what happens there and is it really good for the car.

 

[AWo]

Does the servo gets louder then? Do the revs drop, maybe?

Then it is not a good idea to do this.

The pump will be forced to provide full power. The volume flow is at its maximum pumping the oil in to the chamber but the oil can"t fully return or return at all. A valve releases some pressure but the pump is really stressed. A good way to ruin the servo steering. Many car manuals even contain a warning to keep this state only a very short time and you should try to prevent it.

AWo

 

[Rupert]

Did not get the advice from dealer but have self educated and learned the same.

 

[Greg]

That would explain why when you are pulling out onto the road at a tee intersection at full lock, when you accelerate sometimes it seems as if the truck suddenly puts on even more lock and you have to quickly correct it. Not always, but this might explain it... i will have to experiment.

 

[Deekayy]

Does the servo gets louder then? Do the revs drop, maybe?

Then it is not a good idea to do this.

The pump will be forced to provide full power. The volume flow is at its maximum pumping the oil in to the chamber but the oil can"t fully return or return at all. A valve releases some pressure but the pump is really stressed. A good way to ruin the servo steering. Many car manuals even contain a warning to keep this state only a very short time and you should try to prevent it.

AWo

Hi AWo,
thanks for your answer. As far as I remember the steering/pump does not get louder. But you completely express my concerns. Why is there a stop/lock and I should ignore it an "break the resistance". I will stop using the function until someone really could explain that and why it is ok. I will ask the Ineos support what they say and post the answer.
And today I am at the dealership because they present the Quartermaster. Maybe I can get hold of someone from the technical guys.
Thanks. David

 

[Deekayy]

Just sent the same request to the Ineos support. I will keep you posted if and what they answer...

 

[Deekayy]

Little update: today I was at a presentation at the dealership. I asked one of the sales guys (so no technical professional) about the topic. He could not explain in detail what happens in the car when... But they pretend it does not actively damage the car. Still they admit that it might lead to higher wear. In the end, I am no wiser than before.

But (and this one might be interesting): They are currently negotiating with German "TÜV" (technical testing authority) about 20 mm wheel spacers (Spurplatten) for the Grenadier. The tires will still fit flush into the wheel houses but there will be more room for the tires to turn. And then they hope to be able to mechanically readjust the steering then for steeper steering angles (36°-38° territory) so that a turning circle around 12,50 meters is possible.

For you guys in regions without such massive legal restrictions like in Germany this might be interesting to examine. You could mount spacers and have your dealer readjust the steering so that you can benefit of a smaler turning circle.

Best, David

 

[Cheshire cat]

Little update: today I was at a presentation at the dealership. I asked one of the sales guys (so no technical professional) about the topic. He could not explain in detail what happens in the car when... But they pretend it does not active damage to the car. Still they admit that it might lead to higher wear. In the end, I am no wiser than before.

But (and this one might be interesting): They are currently negotiating with German "TÜV" (technical testing authority) about 20 mm wheel spacers (Spurplatten) for the Grenadier. The tires will still fit flush into the wheel houses but there will be more room for the tires to turn. And then they hope to be able to mechanically readjust the steering then for steeper steering angles (36°-38° territory) so that a turning circle around 12,50 meters is possible.

For you guys in regions without such massice restrictions like in Germany this might be interesting to examine. You could mount spacers and have your dealer readjust the steering so that you can benefit of a smaler turning circle.

Best, David

Hi Deekayy
Your information sounds very encouraging and something I would like to consider.

 

[NoAge Hunter]

Little update: today I was at a presentation at the dealership. I asked one of the sales guys (so no technical professional) about the topic. He could not explain in detail what happens in the car when... But they pretend it does not active damage to the car. Still they admit that it might lead to higher wear. In the end, I am no wiser than before.

But (and this one might be interesting): They are currently negotiating with German "TÜV" (technical testing authority) about 20 mm wheel spacers (Spurplatten) for the Grenadier. The tires will still fit flush into the wheel houses but there will be more room for the tires to turn. And then they hope to be able to mechanically readjust the steering then for steeper steering angles (36°-38° territory) so that a turning circle around 12,50 meters is possible.

For you guys in regions without such massice restrictions like in Germany this might be interesting to examine. You could mount spacers and have your dealer readjust the steering so that you can benefit of a smaler turning circle.

Best, David

So you have been at Matzker

 

[TopperKenobi]

I've noticed that once I initiate a turn at full lock, somewhere in the first 20% or so of the turn, the wheel tucks in a few more degrees as I go along. Perhaps this is similar to what you are experiencing.

I've never done it while watching off road mode.

I have noticed the same thing you describe.
I have been able to make better turns in narrow situations now that I learn how to use it.

JP

 

[Zimm]

Little update: today I was at a presentation at the dealership. I asked one of the sales guys (so no technical professional) about the topic. He could not explain in detail what happens in the car when... But they pretend it does not actively damage the car. Still they admit that it might lead to higher wear. In the end, I am no wiser than before.

But (and this one might be interesting): They are currently negotiating with German "TÜV" (technical testing authority) about 20 mm wheel spacers (Spurplatten) for the Grenadier. The tires will still fit flush into the wheel houses but there will be more room for the tires to turn. And then they hope to be able to mechanically readjust the steering then for steeper steering angles (36°-38° territory) so that a turning circle around 12,50 meters is possible.

For you guys in regions without such massive legal restrictions like in Germany this might be interesting to examine. You could mount spacers and have your dealer readjust the steering so that you can benefit of a smaler turning circle.

Best, David

Who is negotiating, the dealership or Ineos? If Ineos, why not just use a wheel with 20mm negative offset instead of a spacer?

 

[Zimm]

I don't understand how this is supposed to work if the the steering is hitting the stops. As I understand it, some people are adjusting the stops and tightening the circle, and in turn there's a debates as to if the cv's are going to grenade while locked. I'm leaning towards it being fine, especially now that I'm reading post 9, but, it's worth waiting and watching.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Who is negotiating, the dealership or Ineos? If Ineos, why not just use a wheel with 20mm negative offset instead of a spacer?

Rims might be considerably more than the cost of spacers. My first choice, cost permitting would be rims.

 

[Zimm]

Just a note for the discussion. If you wanted to break your Birfield (cv) in your 1975 fj40 off road, you put the truck in 4wd, and went hard reverse with your steering in full lock while pulling out a stuck friend. The result was a guarantee.

 

[Zimm]

Rims might be considerably more than the cost of spacers. My first choice, cost permitting would be rims.

Me too. But I'm figuring if the manufacturer is doing it, that's not much of an issue, especially for steels. A mid model year supply chain change would be something, I guess.

 

[Cheshire cat]

The question for me is: The 20 mm spacer as being discussed by Ineos? Or perhaps the 30 mm, just for that little bit extra. Eibach are producing both.

 

[Zimm]

The question for me is: The 20 mm spacer as being discussed by Ineos? Or perhaps the 30 mm, just for that little bit extra. Eibach are producing both.

In Pennsylvania your wheels can stick out an inch or so, and no one ever gets yanked for it anyway. While not attractive, that 1" of exposure is a great rubber "bumper" and I have that set up on my fj60. It has saved damage when the trail is off camber and eroded 6' below ground level. Getting that tire out to edge isn't a bad thing functionally. I've never seen a new car manufactured with a spacer.

 

[Max]

Hi all,
we all know the discussions about the steering feel and turning circle. But this is not what this post is about.
I have an information to share and would like to hear your comments.

When I picked up my Trialmaster at the dealership they showed my the following "trick" (I don't know if it really is one)...
- You turn your steering wheel to one stop (left or right, does not matter): your info screen will display your steering angle, in my case 33°
- then you grab the wheel tightly with both hands and turn it further, yes, against the resistance and yes, it takes some force
- then - miraculously - you can turn the wheel further, in my case up to 38°
- and yes, the turning circle is smaller then
- I did not yet measure the effect, but it feels a bit as if it really was smaller then the specification says (13,5 meters)
- the resistance becomes lower with the time

Now my questions:
- Did you get this advice also? Did your dealers tell you?
- does it work in your cars?
- can anybody explain, what happens with the car when doing so?
- And, most importantly: is it good for the car, should it really be done?

Thanks in advance for your comments, David

I wrote about this discovery some time ago and yes it does seem to ease with use...happy days