Removing the underseat trim panels / accessing or removing the batteries

[DCPU]

So so you think that your wiring set up is the same as all others as I have the dual battery , high load and auxiliary socket set up, but at one point you thought maybe your vehicle was wired differently although that was before you could get full access to your battery box.

Yes - now that I can physically trace most of the major cables I would say we have a common setup - which does make sense. ;-)

 

[Logsplitter]

Yes - now that I can physically trace most of the major cables I would say we have a common setup - which does make sense. ;-)

And everyone so far with the dual battery set up does not have the smart alternator cable connected , just a different way of wiring it up I guess but mine seems to work OK regards charging but have not had the opportunity to test the start assistance when the starter battery is flat. I’ll keep my emergency jump starter with me just in case.

 

[DCPU]

A few more photos...

Vent tube for starter battery passes through the floor:

These two bolts are rather close to the cable (main feed from starter battery via the 7 way fuse box to the 5 way fuse box), the left one actually touching:

So added a couple of plastic nut covers:

Found a cover that fits the positive terminal on the auxiliary battery:

The cable pipe in the green circle need some attention. The cable (350A to rear NATO socket) is tight on the trim panel. I can't see why they haven't gone into the "huge" hole indicated by the red arrow. Similarly, it seems an odd detour to lift the rear washer tube over the loom when it could have just passed easily underneath?

I might disconnect the cable at the fuse box and re-route it. Also checking the nut/stud in the fuse box as there doesn't seem to be much engagement between the two:

 

[ADVAW8S]

@DCPU i was trying to increase my dual battery knowledge and was watching 4wd 24-7 ans he was showing a simple dual battery setup. He showed a version without a smart alternator and one with smart alternator. He claimed that if you only want your aux battery charging when the car on, you will need a alternator switch for smart alternator. He recommend a fuse jumper. You attach the fuse jumper to the ignition fuse and then run the red wire to your charger. The concept in my understanding is the aux battery will only charge when the alternator is on. My question is, when looking at the Smartpass we see the red alternator wire loose and I would think that is what we would connect to the smart alternator? Then we would run all our accessories, except winch and lightbars, off the smartpass which would draw from the Aux battery. Do you think the issue is the dual battery system is set up to draw from both batteries as parallel and is why Das had issues. Any knowledge would help.

 

[Xrford]

So looking at the layout the 80 amp feed for aux fuse box connected to the main starter battery bus bar could be moved to the consumers output of the cteck 120 so that all your aux power would be fed by the aux battery instead of the starter battery and would allow the ctek to disconnect the aux power if the aux battery dropped below the lower voltage limit?

 

[bakepl]

So looking at the layout the 80 amp feed for aux fuse box connected to the main starter battery bus bar could be moved to the consumers output of the cteck 120 so that all your aux power would be fed by the aux battery instead of the starter battery and would allow the ctek to disconnect the aux power if the aux battery dropped below the lower voltage limit?

Yes does seem a little odd nothing at all is connected to the consumer out of the smartpass. Perhaps was easier for all vehicles to be wired this way and remains the same, smartpass fitted or not....

 

[DCPU]

@DCPU i was trying to increase my dual battery knowledge and was watching 4wd 24-7 ans he was showing a simple dual battery setup. He showed a version without a smart alternator and one with smart alternator. He claimed that if you only want your aux battery charging when the car on, you will need a alternator switch for smart alternator. He recommend a fuse jumper. You attach the fuse jumper to the ignition fuse and then run the red wire to your charger. The concept in my understanding is the aux battery will only charge when the alternator is on.

I'm being dense - but how would the aux battery charge when the alternator is off?

My question is, when looking at the Smartpass we see the red alternator wire loose and I would think that is what we would connect to the smart alternator? Then we would run all our accessories, except winch and lightbars, off the smartpass which would draw from the Aux battery.

I'm learning on this as we go, we really need to understand the design philosophy from Ineos and in particular the details of what it has in the BCM/software that essentially does the same thing as the Smartpass loose red wire - which is the initial take I get from @Logsplitter's reply from Ineos.

Do you think the issue is the dual battery system is set up to draw from both batteries as parallel and is why Das had issues. Any knowledge would help.

Hopefully we will get to hear the root cause analysis for @das mo's issues.

Whilst not in actual parallel other than for "smart assist", the manual states:

"The service battery trickle charges the starter battery without assistance from the solar panel or alternator to compensate for the self-discharge of the starter battery. The service battery charges in 3-second pulses when its voltage is higher that of the starter battery and the voltage of the starter battery is low".

 

[Logsplitter]

"The service battery trickle charges the starter battery without assistance from the solar panel or alternator to compensate for the self-discharge of the starter battery. The service battery charges in 3-second pulses when its voltage is higher that of the starter battery and the voltage of the starter battery is low".
what we need to know is at what point does it stop pulse charging the starter battery, there has to be a cut off or both batteries end up flat as may be the case in @das mo case. I’m hoping when I ship my vehicle that with nothing connected to the service battery that it will be able to start the engine when the vehicle gets to its destination as there will be some loss on the starter battery.

 

[ADVAW8S]

I'm being dense - but how would the aux battery charge when the alternator is off?

Your not being dense. I think the point I was making was that the aux battery would be always take charge from the main battery. But it you want connect the smart alternator fuse, the Aux battery will start taking charge once the car is started.

 

[DCPU]

"The service battery trickle charges the starter battery without assistance from the solar panel or alternator to compensate for the self-discharge of the starter battery. The service battery charges in 3-second pulses when its voltage is higher that of the starter battery and the voltage of the starter battery is low".
what we need to know is at what point does it stop pulse charging the starter battery, there has to be a cut off or both batteries end up flat as may be the case in @das mo case.

Manual states at 11.5v - the same as the cutoff for consumers attached directly to the Smartpass.

 

[DCPU]

So looking at the layout the 80 amp feed for aux fuse box connected to the main starter battery bus bar could be moved to the consumers output of the cteck 120 so that all your aux power would be fed by the aux battery instead of the starter battery and would allow the ctek to disconnect the aux power if the aux battery dropped below the lower voltage limit?

Yes, if I've correctly identified the feed as I said earlier. The MTA auxiliary fuse box is bottom fed and there's no common busbar, so that's puzzling me.

 

[Logsplitter]

Manual states at 11.5v - the same as the cutoff for consumers attached directly to the Smartpass.

That doesn’t sound a lot of good then. If both batteries are down to that level or possibly lower for the start battery then not much hope of starting the engine I guess. I wonder if it can be changed to cut off if voltage goes below 12.3 for example, otherwise even if not using the service battery for auxiliary loads it would soon flatten anyway after a few days of pulse charging the start battery. I think I would prefer something like a voltage sensitive relay that disconnects the two batteries or the link between the two can even be disconnected manually although this wouldn’t be compatible with a smart alternator. I need to try and learn more about this set up before possibly being stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Xrford]

My understanding of the red ignition feed for the ctek 120 is it is to be used for systems that have a smart alternator. Its purpose is to signal to the 120 that the ignition is on and the engine is running. This is required because the smart alternator may be off, so the default way it determines the engine is running can not be used. The default method is to sense an increase in voltage from the alternator (ie >13v) to determine the engine is running. Obviously the default method only works with old school dumb alternators that are always on. So why does the 120 need to know when the engine is on? Well once it knows the engine is on it can then connect the aux battery to the starter so they both will get charged by the alternator. In the smart alternator scenario when the 120 sees the ignition feed the 120 will determine if the aux battery needs charging and will connect it to the starter battery which lowers the voltage of the starter which will signal to the ECU/BCM to turn on the smart alternator because it thinks the starter battery is not fully charged. My understanding from Ineos‘s response earlier in this thread is the red wire is not used in the grenadiers equipped with dual batteries from the factory, because the grenadier’s ECU/BCM is monitoring both batteries and will signal the alternator to turn on when needed. This means the default method for the 120 will work because it can rely on the alternator being on when the aux needs charging and the 120 can then connect the two batteries together to be charge. We have to remember the 120 was designed as an aftermarket way to retrofit a dual battery system into a vehicle that was never designed to have a dual battery system. Because the Grenadier was designed to have the dual battery system from the factory, it could program the ECU/BCM to turn on the smart alternator when needed instead of relying on the 120 to figure it out. This is ultimately a better solution because the ECU/BCM can be a lot smarter about when to turn on the alternator and can take into account a lot more system variables when doing this.

 

[Logsplitter]

My understanding of the red ignition feed for the ctek 120 is it is to be used for systems that have a smart alternator. Its purpose is to signal to the 120 that the ignition is on and the engine is running. This is required because the smart alternator may be off, so the default way it determines the engine is running can not be used. The default method is to sense an increase in voltage from the alternator (ie >13v) to determine the engine is running. Obviously the default method only works with old school dumb alternators that are always on. So why does the 120 need to know when the engine is on? Well once it knows the engine is on it can then connect the aux battery to the starter so they both will get charged by the alternator. In the smart alternator scenario when the 120 sees the ignition feed the 120 will determine if the aux battery needs charging and will connect it to the starter battery which lowers the voltage of the starter which will signal to the ECU/BCM to turn on the smart alternator because it thinks the starter battery is not fully charged. My understanding from Ineos‘s response earlier in this thread is the red wire is not used in the grenadiers equipped with dual batteries from the factory, because the grenadier’s ECU/BCM is monitoring both batteries and will signal the alternator to turn on when needed. This means the default method for the 120 will work because it can rely on the alternator being on when the aux needs charging and the 120 can then connect the two batteries together to be charge. We have to remember the 120 was designed as an aftermarket way to retrofit a dual battery system into a vehicle that was never designed to have a dual battery system. Because the Grenadier was designed to have the dual battery system from the factory, it could program the ECU/BCM to turn on the smart alternator when needed instead of relying on the 120 to figure it out. This is ultimately a better solution because the ECU/BCM can be a lot smarter about when to turn on the alternator and can take into account a lot more system variables when doing this.

Yes that makes sense to me. So do you think that the two batteries are isolated when the engine is not running so that the power in the service battery can be reserved to help start the starter battery if flat.

 

[Logsplitter]

I'm being dense - but how would the aux battery charge when the alternator is off?


I'm learning on this as we go, we really need to understand the design philosophy from Ineos and in particular the details of what it has in the BCM/software that essentially does the same thing as the Smartpass loose red wire - which is the initial take I get from @Logsplitter's reply from Ineos.


Hopefully we will get to hear the root cause analysis for @das mo's issues.

Whilst not in actual parallel other than for "smart assist", the manual states:

"The service battery trickle charges the starter battery without assistance from the solar panel or alternator to compensate for the self-discharge of the starter battery. The service battery charges in 3-second pulses when its voltage is higher that of the starter battery and the voltage of the starter battery is low".

Where in the manual does it state that the service battery trickle charges the starter battery or was that the Ctek manual and not the Grenadier manual. I’ve searched so much I’m boggle eyed . But I found this in the Grenadier manual. . “The Auxiliary Battery is connected to the vehicle's electrical system but isolated from the starter circuit. The Auxiliary Battery is used as a safety back-up to support the main battery when required or to provide voltage for specific vehicle systems. The Auxiliary Battery protects the vehicle as it prevents a voltage drop when cranking the engine.” I would like to think that the two batteries are separated when the engine is not running or voltage drops below 12.5 volts.
Thanks

 

[Xrford]

Yes that makes sense to me. So do you think that the two batteries are isolated when the engine is not running so that the power in the service battery can be reserved to help start the starter battery if flat.

The ctek manual does indicate the two batteries are isolated when the ignition is off. But it does also state it will attempt to assist the starter battery if the starter cannot start the car on its own. The assist functionality is most likely insufficient to start the car when the starter battery is severely drained. The way the 120 was designed was for all your ignition off power needs to be drawn from the aux battery. This would draw down your aux battery first not the opposite . Unfortunately Ineos has taken the approach of connecting all power draws from the starter battery, even the power from the aux switch panel. This means the starter battery will always be drawn down first, thus the assist logic would be require.

 

[Xrford]

Where in the manual does it state that the service battery trickle charges the starter battery or was that the Ctek manual and not the Grenadier manual. I’ve searched so much I’m boggle eyed . But I found this in the Grenadier manual. . “The Auxiliary Battery is connected to the vehicle's electrical system but isolated from the starter circuit. The Auxiliary Battery is used as a safety back-up to support the main battery when required or to provide voltage for specific vehicle systems. The Auxiliary Battery protects the vehicle as it prevents a voltage drop when cranking the engine.” I would like to think that the two batteries are separated when the engine is not running or voltage drops below 12.5 volts.
Thanks

Trickle charging the starter battery is a feature of the D250SE not the 120. (correction the 120 feature list does show a trickle charging capability as well)

 

[Logsplitter]

Trickle charging the starter battery is a feature of the D250SE not the 120.
View attachment 7821472

That’s why I couldn’t find it in the Grenadier manual then . I thought I was going mad. Thanks for that I’ll sleep easier now.

 

[bakepl]

Where in the manual does it state that the service battery trickle charges the starter battery or was that the Ctek manual and not the Grenadier manual. I’ve searched so much I’m boggle eyed . But I found this in the Grenadier manual. . “The Auxiliary Battery is connected to the vehicle's electrical system but isolated from the starter circuit. The Auxiliary Battery is used as a safety back-up to support the main battery when required or to provide voltage for specific vehicle systems. The Auxiliary Battery protects the vehicle as it prevents a voltage drop when cranking the engine.” I would like to think that the two batteries are separated when the engine is not running or voltage drops below 12.5 volts.
Thanks

I'd like to think what Ineos has said is correct but.... Are we able to confirm that if the starter battery is drawn down to 60 or 70% then so to is the aux battery or is the Aux completely separate when the vehicle is not running (and therefore the Aux remains fully charged)?

This also begs the question.. when adding the D250SE (say for solar input), is the red wire attached to 12volts or not. I'm guessing Ctek will say it needs to be attached. Anyone know?

 

[Logsplitter]

I'd like to think what Ineos has said is correct but.... Are we able to confirm that if the starter battery is drawn down to 60 or 70% then so to is the aux battery or is the Aux completely separate when the vehicle is not running (and therefore the Aux remains fully charged)?

This also begs the question.. when adding the D250SE (say for solar input), is the red wire attached to 12volts or not. I'm guessing Ctek will say it needs to be attached. Anyone know?

I’m very confident that what Ineos told me is correct. My vehicle will be in a container for 5 to 6 weeks as of next week on its way to Cape Town that will be a good test as to whether the auxiliary battery will help start the engine. I will make sure the batteries get a good maintenance charge before hand.
My inquiry to Ctek got a reply saying the red wire can be connected if adding the D250SE. .
Someone on this forum from Bell Auto Services has installed a D250 SE lets see if we can find out his wiring set up.