Americas My Grenadier / Thoughts After 6 Weeks

[Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

 

[Joefly78]

Thank you for this. I'm on the fence about finalizing my purchase. Seems like a lot to have to tolerate on something so expensive. Maybe I read the forums too closely, but it seems like maybe waiting on generation 2 or 3 might be wise.

My question for you is: knowing what you know today, would you buy it again?

 

[Arniem]

GREAT ANALYSIS of the car .
I have the same opinions .
I am still waiting for the MACHINE .

 

[Tazzieman]

Hands up if you have a wife/partner that is 98% great and 2% what you call "friction".
You're still her best friend and go to person, right?
And vice versa,
Nothing's perfect and never will be.
The only thing that slightly grates with me is having to turn stop/start and PDC buttons off.
But as with any pre flight check , it takes but a second and is soon imprinted in the rusty old cortex!

 

[Kevin Mokracek]

I have almost 800 miles since my purchase and complained about the steering and the ADAS the first few days even though I knew exactly what I was getting. After taking it on a few difficult trails in the desert I can overlook the steering, in fact the steering on the road is pretty much a non issue now. I had said all along I was willing to make compromises in areas for a truly purpose built 4x4 and that is exactly what I got. If someone buys this with no intention of using it as it was intended I can see someone being frustrated and I don't think this truck would be a good purchase. The ADAS is a minor annoyance and it has just become habit to hit the favorites button and turn it off when I get I the truck along with the stop start button. I don't regret my decision at all buying this truck but could easily see others kicking themselves after the purchase.

 

[AngusMacG]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks. I tried to use my 2006 Land Cruiser to explain what I would like the Grenadier to become.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

Most people do not like change. I think your biggest “friction” is still having the Land Cruiser to default to. Basically you still have your routine and making a change, from a psychological standpoint, is preventing you from adjusting to a new routine. If you force yourself to make the Grenadier your daily then you will be used to the new routine and when you do go back the the LC there wont be as much of an adjustment.

 

[carlg007]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

Thank you for your assessment of your experience with the Grenadier. With all due respect and sincerity it seems that the percentages of your likes and dislikes are off based on your detailed analysis, just saying and I think it is important to point out the features that need improvements. Thank you for all of your contributions.

 

[Krabby]

. If someone buys this with no intention of using it as it was intended I can see someone being frustrated and I don't think this truck would be a good purchase.

It’s the disappointment of those types of people that prodded mfgs to start to gradually soften things along the way. While I recognize it’s not apples to apples, look at the transition of these vehicles (NA spec) LR Discovery, Nissan Pathfinder, Ford Explorer… their 1st generation iterations were super tough and capable but much more truck-like. Slowly, generation to generation they softened, became more carlike and in turn, far less (maybe not at all) capable. Reminds me of this:

 

[anand]

look at the transition of these vehicles (NA spec) LR Discovery, Nissan Pathfinder, Ford Explorer… their 1st generation iterations were super tough and capable but much more truck-like. Slowly, generation to generation they softened, became more carlike and in turn, far less (maybe not at all) capable. Reminds me of this:

They all started off body on frame and real 4x4 systems... All 3 have lost the former and only one still holds on to the latter

 

[JackieTreehorn]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

I really like this assessment. Everyone reviews and talks about the same aspects, so the usability or "friction" is a cool perspective. 1000% Agree with you.

The visceral reaction to the electronic nannies are very real and from a psychological standpoint probably in part come from where we are at as a society (without talking politics of course), I don't want to be controlled or told how to operate my personal equipment. I don't want Google or Amazon reading my next move, but the tech does help me live life. With ADAS I can't help but feel as though we are on a slow creep towards waking up one day to find out that we are unable to operate the vehicle because the government issues a snow alert and everyone is to stay off the roads. Maybe not in the current iteration of ADAS, but who knows. I never thought backing into my garage without my foot depressing the brake pedal would set off DEFCON1 and apply the brakes causing outright panic, or the time I was crossing over a highway bridge and the ADAS went berserk because it saw the freeway traffic as a potential collision. These systems are absolute nonsense and probably dangerous in some cases.

 

[Joefly78]

I really like this assessment. Everyone reviews and talks about the same aspects, so the usability or "friction" is a cool perspective. 1000% Agree with you.

The visceral reaction to the electronic nannies are very real and from a psychological standpoint probably in part come from where we are at as a society (without talking politics of course), I don't want to be controlled or told how to operate my personal equipment. I don't want Google or Amazon reading my next move, but the tech does help me live life. With ADAS I can't help but feel as though we are on a slow creep towards waking up one day to find out that we are unable to operate the vehicle because the government issues a snow alert and everyone is to stay off the roads. Maybe not in the current iteration of ADAS, but who knows. I never thought backing into my garage without my foot depressing the brake pedal would set off DEFCON1 and apply the brakes causing outright panic, or the time I was crossing over a highway bridge and the ADAS went berserk because it saw the freeway traffic as a potential collision. These systems are absolute nonsense and probably dangerous in some cases.

All of those supervisory systems are an attempted substitute for actual driver education and training. If we trained drivers 5% as much as we do professional pilots, there would be no need for these nannies, because the accidents that lead to their instatement wouldn't happen. There's a reason that nearly every feature of an airliner has a readily accessible switch or circuit breaker; the pilot is an expert (and is trusted) with the operation of the plane and is given full "admin" access to its capabilities.

 

[DaBull]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

Hi Offroad, On your Pre-Flight Routine above for the Grenadier, you forgot to close the door in the Grenadier.
I think you need a real pre-check written check off list.

I own a New Defender and I go through the following Pre-Flight Routine;
Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, Foot on brake, Press start/stop button, Turn off auto start/stop, Press seat warmer button, Adjust seat warmer temperature, Turn on air recirculate, Press auto temperature, Adjust cabin temperature, Press entry height for passenger on-loading, Press unlock door locks for passengers, Wait for passengers to load, make sure passengers have seat belts on, Put on smooth jazz on Sirius XM, Taxi to main road, Take off.
Call me a bit crazy, however I actually enjoy the routine of pushing all the buttons in a certain sequence. Can't wait for my Grenadier with even more buttons to push.
I may a bit OCD. DaBull

 

[BroncoBilly]

4 years ago I started researching importing a LHD 2007+ Defender 110 3 door wagon, figured I'd stick an alumcab top on it, tart up the interior a bit and go fishing. My first vehicle was a '64 88 series that I bought coming out of high school in 1970. I thought there would be a certain symmetry about having my first and last rides being land rovers. About that time I got wind of the grenadier and what was envisioned sounded even better, sort of a modernized spin on my old departed triple locked '97 Lexus LX450. An up to date interpretation of the old school land rover but with a reliable tank like build, low tech, easy to repair with onboard manuals and direct ship of parts from the manufacturer if you break something important in the middle of nowhere. Sold and serviced by small independent agricultural equipment dealers that would be spotted over the rural areas for ease of access. It sounded so good I figured I wait and see how this grenadier thing evolved so I bought a bronco as a hold over until the real answer arrived. As we are all now well aware moving from concept to delivery things have significantly changed. What we have before us now is not what was imagined on that beer coaster/napkin or whatever the urban myth claimed. I'm sure there are very good technical/regulatory/marketing reasons why that is the case but none the less it is the case and how do I, or we, as potential consumers of the final product react to it. Everyone's criteria, situation, use case differs but right now I find myself less and less enamoured with the Canadian delivery/service model with a vehicle that has dramatically evolved. I'm going to wait until the dealers get up and running and understand what their process capability really is but I'm certainly less optimistic now than I have been. 2 dealerships in Canada, 4500km apart with the Vancouver dealer getting back into the new car sales in a very exclusive urban location after selling their dealerships for bugatti, koenigsegg, lamborghini, and various other high end marques the sales/delivery model doesn't remotely resemble what I was led to expect and I hold low expectations that the service model will either. Now I'm wondering if that old defender with a kit from these guys aligns more with my wants and needs. https://www.edisonmotors.ca/edison-pickup-kit

 

[soupcon]

Great writeup. I don't feel as much friction as you do. I'm having a ton of fun with it, especially compared with my 2019 4runner TRD PRO. I liked it but was never in love with it. I could be in love with the Grenadier.

 

[Shopkeep]

Well thought out post, all valid points.

I like the discipline involved in the pre-flight routine, it adds to the character of the vehicle (but no ADAS for me). With the hard to find key hole challenge I suggest the following change: unlock via key fob, open door, lean in and insert key, rotate to first stop, climb/jump in, slam door closed, put on seat belt, (by now warning lights have cleared), start engine, drive away.

I still don’t understand the almost militant dislike by many of auto start/stop. I drive daily in an inner city area and it works seamlessly for me, I enjoy the quiet when the engine is off at traffic lights. I would wait until you need to do a three point turn to turn it off (how many do you do daily?)

 

[stickshifter]

I really like this assessment. Everyone reviews and talks about the same aspects, so the usability or "friction" is a cool perspective. 1000% Agree with you.

The visceral reaction to the electronic nannies are very real and from a psychological standpoint probably in part come from where we are at as a society (without talking politics of course), I don't want to be controlled or told how to operate my personal equipment. I don't want Google or Amazon reading my next move, but the tech does help me live life. With ADAS I can't help but feel as though we are on a slow creep towards waking up one day to find out that we are unable to operate the vehicle because the government issues a snow alert and everyone is to stay off the roads. Maybe not in the current iteration of ADAS, but who knows. I never thought backing into my garage without my foot depressing the brake pedal would set off DEFCON1 and apply the brakes causing outright panic, or the time I was crossing over a highway bridge and the ADAS went berserk because it saw the freeway traffic as a potential collision. These systems are absolute nonsense and probably dangerous in some cases.

When you car is immobilized during that government-issued snow alert, it will be in the name of "safety".

I don't think your scenario is as far-fetched as we might imagine. Coming soon is software that will immobilize your car if it detects that you are "drunk" or too "drowsy" to drive. Legislation included in the "Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act", passed in January 2021. See copy and paste below:

SEC. 24220. ADVANCED IMPAIRED DRIVING TECHNOLOGY

Yes, there are too many car accidents, and I can understand why anyone who has lost a loved one to a car accident would want to see as many safety features as possible mandated by law. But I think there are ways to make the roads safer that are less invasive, and that do not expose the public to potential abuse at the hands of hackers, or some form of government overreach. I also understand that not everyone sees this issue in the same way. Each of us has our own perspective, shaped by our own life experiences. I am a combat veteran who was deployed downrange in two theaters during the Cold War. I have seen the consequences when governments take away individual liberty in the name of some "greater good", and its never good.

“We must be free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it.” - William Faulkner

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[stickshifter]

Below are links to a few articles on the topic of "drowsy driver detection" software and the ability of the software to immobilize your car.

If this topic is not one that you are interested in - ignore this post.

If you find it relevant to current discussions of the ADAS software found in 2024 North American Grenadiers, then read on.

Hageman Fights Law That Mandates Government-Controlled 'Kill Switch' In All Cars​

UPDATE - Car ‘Kill Switch’ - House Vote Fails To Remove From Bill​

Unfortunately, the popular fact-checking agencies are downplaying the notion of the "kill switch" in their reports - mostly just based on the term "kill switch". I have read all the fact-checking reports, and I have read the actual legislation (an excerpt of which I posted in the previous post). But don't take my word - do that work and decide for yourself. You can find links to the actual legislation in these articles.

Snopes: Fact Check

Fact-Checkers Are Gaslighting You on the Feds’ Vehicle ‘Kill Switch’ Mandate​

 

[JackieTreehorn]

All of those supervisory systems are an attempted substitute for actual driver education and training. If we trained drivers 5% as much as we do professional pilots, there would be no need for these nannies, because the accidents that lead to their instatement wouldn't happen. There's a reason that nearly every feature of an airliner has a readily accessible switch or circuit breaker; the pilot is an expert (and is trusted) with the operation of the plane and is given full "admin" access to its capabilities.

Agreed.
I don’t want to hijack this thread, but the driver assist “nannies” have been creeping for decades. I see both side but still fall on the side of “dangerous freedom”.

We could solve a lot of traffic deaths and injuries if we restricted licensing. No drivers under 25, or over 65, or with 1 DWI etc…
Completely unrealistic and that would destroy peoples lives. However, overregulating the rest of us that choose to act responsibly is BS also.

Back to the Grenadier though, at least when you select “off road” mode, it lets you drive without the seatbelt, disabled auto start/stop and you can open the door while backing up.

 

[acwiltshire]

All - This is my somewhat lengthy / long-winded review of the Grenadier after 6 weeks.


If you follow Tesla at all, Elon Musk is always quick to say, 'Prototypes are easy; manufacturing is hard.' INEOS seems to have figured out both the prototype and manufacturing sides! Great job on that.

Overall, I love the Grenadier. Looks, style, color choices, options, engine, transmission, interior, seats, storage/cargo space, rear doors, the list goes on and on.

I anticipated issues with a first-generation vehicle/first-time manufacturer. Overall, I am pleasantly surprised. Some software bugs are here and there, a few fit-and-finish things here and there, but nothing that dramatically takes away from what I love about the Grenadier.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate,' so I will say there are a few things I 'strongly dislike.' It's a very short list and includes the way INEOS implemented the ADAS system in the USA (I know, big surprise coming from me).

But that's not what this post is about. This post is about 'FRICTION.'

I have a few vehicles, but I'm going to focus on my 2006 Land Cruiser. It has 175,000 miles, center locking differential, BFG K02s, Rock Sliders, Bluetooth add-on, heated seats, and an old-school key. It has airbags and seatbelt reminders but no other meaningful safety features like lane departure, blind spot awareness, speed alerts, etc., because of its age.

The Land Cruiser is my utilitarian, do-anything, go-anywhere, anytime vehicle. Bad weather? I take the Land Cruiser. Trail run? I take the Land Cruiser. Lowes/Home Depot? I take the Land Cruiser. Dog park? I take the Land Cruiser. Road trip? I take the Land Cruiser. You get the point.

Why is this important? For me, the Land Cruiser is the type of utilitarian, purpose-driven vehicle the Grenadier was designed to replace. And, so far, it's not.

For a frame of reference, the Grenadier is better than my 2006 Land Cruiser in 'almost,' and maybe even 'every way.'

So, after having the Grenadier for almost 6 weeks, I am still somewhat defaulting to the Land Cruiser. Why? There is no 'friction' when I get in the Land Cruiser and GO. For the most part, it has everything I want and nothing I don't. This is really important to me.

An important side note: My friend with a 2021 G-Wagon has defaulted to the Grenadier.

So, where are the 'Friction' points with making the Grenadier my 'Get in and Go' vehicle?

It's New: To be fair, maybe the 'newness' hasn't worn off to the point I'm ready to use it the way it was designed to be used. Maybe I don't want the dog scratching the leather seats (Seat covers ordered and on the way). Time will tell.

Physical Ignition Key: I don't mind the physical key. The Land Cruiser has one as well, and it slides right in. However, in the Grenadier, the key is awkward to get in the ignition, pretty much every time, day or night. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the angle, maybe it's just hard to see the angle, or maybe the 'ignition and the key' don't like each other. Not sure about this one.

Auto Start/Stop: The Auto Start/Stop is not bad. It's not abrupt, and it doesn't rock the whole vehicle like other cars I've been in do. And, importantly, the button is in a great location and easy to turn off! The problem is, if I don't turn it off, it often activates when I'm trying to do a three-point turn (more on this up next). I shouldn't have to deactivate Auto Start/Stop trying to park. More on parking later.

Steering: Why do new car companies mess around with steering? Tesla with the rectangular steering wheel and now INEOS with old-school steering box or whatever makes the number of turns so many and the turning radius so bad?

Unrelated to the Grenadier comparison to the LC, there is a night and day difference between the steering dynamics of my '76 Bronco and my '97 Defender D90. The D90 tracks straight down the road in all conditions, and the turning radius is good as well. I have no idea if the steering wheel returns to center because it's largely effortless. The '76 Bronco, less so. Somewhere along the way, manufacturers figured these things out, and they seem to be missing in the Grenadier.

I understand (and appreciate) the mentality of 'it's an offroad vehicle first,' but sometimes you go into town for supplies or a movie or dinner or go to the city for the weekend.

Others have complained about the 'lack of return' to center. I put this in the 'tolerate' category, but parking lots/parking garages are tough to navigate and somewhat embarrassing with people watching. Parallel parking, especially in somewhat tight spots, is an athletic event. It's difficult at best and, in some cases, impossible.

Automatic Driver Assistance System (ADAS): ADAS, which includes AEB, Land Departure, Traffic Sign Recognition, Speed Alert, and a few other things, is actually good, but the Alerts and the ability to configure the system are 'terrible bordering on intolerable' in my opinion.

The major issue (for me) is that you must turn it partially off every single time you start the vehicle if you don't want to hear the clicking (8 CLICKS in a row) when you go a few miles an hour over the speed limit. Repeat these clicks in your head because it happens over and over and over and over as you speed up and slow down in traffic.

The Lane Departure feature in ADAS, which I would argue is a 'more relevant' safety feature, gets 'one' very tolerable chime. Simple and to the point. No Friction!

ADAS, unfortunately, does not have 'Blind Spot Assist.' I would say it is one of the best and most important safety features a car can have.

In the case of the Grenadier, I would think this would be one of the most important safety features given the lack of visibility with the B Pillar (that's what you see when you turn your head directly to the left and can't see the car next to you) and the lack of visibility with the double rear doors and spare tire.

Height: Yes, I know, it's an off-road vehicle. And, yes, it's somewhat of a pain to get into at 5'9". The optional Side Steps/Sliders unfortunately don't help much. Both seem to be mounted too far inside the frame. The Sliders can't be used as even a partial step like on my Land Cruiser, and the side steps are also too close to the vehicle, and feet get caught between the step and the underbody when getting into the vehicle. My G-Wagon friend pointed this out, and I agree.

Pre-Flight Routine: This is the Major Friction Point for me, and this is what makes the Grenadier not a 'get in and go' vehicle. Every time I get in it, I must go through the same routine.

Here is what the Pre-flight Routine looks like in both vehicles:

Land Cruiser: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Close door, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, GO.

Grenadier: Unlock w/ Key Fob, Open Door, Climb in, Seatbelt on, key in ignition, Start car, Turn off Auto Start/Stop, Wait for display to boot, Hit Favorite Button (Usually works the first time), Turn Off Speed Limit Warning, Push CarPlay button, GO.

That is a lot of Friction. Maybe not on a long drive, but as a daily driver, it is too much, in my opinion. Leave the house, Pre-Flight Routine, Get gas, Pre-Flight Routine, Go to the grocery, Pre-Flight Routine, Stop at FedEx, Pre-Flight Routine. I probably sound like a soccer parent (I'm not), but there is a version of this even when you are offroad if you're not on an identified road with a posted speed limit.

Finally, and importantly, I really like the Grenadier as a new vehicle, but I want to love it like an old one.

The 'problem' here is that the 2% of things I can 'handle' and 'strongly dislike' overshadow the 98% I love. Why? Because the 2% is on my mind, in my face, and in my ears 100% of the time. Customer satisfaction lives and dies in that small but important 2%.

Excellent appraisal. My 2% is wet drivers footwell and battery state unable to go above 65%. I'm 7 months in with 2700 miles done but another person in the reject the vehicle queue.

 

[TanisIndependentTraders]

It’s the disappointment of those types of people that prodded mfgs to start to gradually soften things along the way. While I recognize it’s not apples to apples, look at the transition of these vehicles (NA spec) LR Discovery, Nissan Pathfinder, Ford Explorer… their 1st generation iterations were super tough and capable but much more truck-like. Slowly, generation to generation they softened, became more carlike and in turn, far less (maybe not at all) capable. Reminds me of this:



View attachment 7838974

I laughed at the meme but don't forget "real" mean used to wear powder and wigs circa 1776.

(and no I don't have a man bun or long hair).

on topic, based on reviews I am assuming that when I get my Grenadier I will still mostly default to my R1S which has been solid especially in winter conditions.

edited to add: The Rivian has very aggressive lane departure warning, so sensitive that most drivers disable it (which thankfully can be done as a universal setting and not at the start of each drive).