Move to Defender?

[Jimmiovskio]

This is a genuine post from a somewhat frustrated Fieldmaster owner

In the 6 months of ownership, I’ve had a load of niggles - faulty shockers, faulty Low Range shift, the abominable HVAC and a creaking dashboard so annoying I want to have the car crushed.

At the same time, slowly and at first un-noticably, I have become utterly crippled with lower back pain. I have finally realised - driving the Grenadier for between 3-4 hours on weekdays, the seats, lack of lower back support or adjustment and the infamous RHD foot rest is the cause. I’m 180cm and 170lbs - I should have no problems - but I can just no longer get comfortable - the constantly raised left leg no matter what the seating position is twisting my hip joint. If I put the seat on its lowest position the steering wheels is too high and far away - if I have it on its highest position - I can’t put the seat far enough back to stretch my legs. Ergonomically it’s inexplicably poor and something you only realise with hundreds of hours of driving it.

So I’m left feeling physically drained by the sheer hard work of owning this Grenadier. I used to have classic Land Rover Defender 90’s and 110’s and I never struggled to get comfortable.

I need a car with this level of capability though - I live on a former farm in the middle of nowhere and the terrain and weather is extreme for the UK. In the UK our choice of vehicle is limited. It’s either the Grenadier, a Defender, the hard to come by and crazily priced new Land Cruiser or a plethora of pickups.

So I’ve found myself eyeing up the new Defender 110/130. I know this is not the place to seek LR recommendations but I’d like opinions whether I should try to stick with the Grenadier and any genuine thoughts on the Defender as a capable vehicle?

The Defender seems far superior in the interior - the seats, driving position and comfort are a world ahead of the Grenadier. They’re also cheaper - believe it or not - even when you add even more bells and whistles - they can be had for a lot less than the Grenadier.

Land Rover and technology/infotainment screens aren’t synonymous with reliability - but there too, I’ve found the Grenadier poor - to say it’s a re-skimmed BMW system is baffling such are its flaws and bugs, ghost warnings and alerts etc.

So I guess my questions are:

Are there things I can do to get along with my Grenadier?

Are my experiences rare or are we all a bit too forgiving?

Thoughts in the new Defender?

Any other suggestions for the UK market?

Thanks all,

 

[Coullabus]

You obviously feel very strongly about your Grenadier concerns and issues. Surely you have answered your own question? It has to be your choice.

 

[255/85]

I'm not familiar with old Defenders but I don't think I've ever heard someone say they were comfortable. So if driving a Grenadier is actually the cause of your discomfort then you'll need to do something. New seats perhaps? An inflatable lumbar support? Maybe consult with a kinesiologist, DC, or PT?

Or you could just get an old Defender.

 

[Zimm]

The lumbar support can be added with a 30 dollar airbag. The seat can be adjusted to add rake to the lower pad by shimming the two front mount points. This will permit a lower seat setting while raising the legs and supporting the knees, and lastly, when I was in the dash I took note that the studs holding the steering column assembly look to have a 1/2” of thread showing which would permit the wheel to drop about an inch in its arc, if you shimmed it. It’s something on my list to do the next time I dive into the dash.


If you REALLY want to try to save your experience maybe give those a wack. A few of us have posted pics of the seat disassembly and the rest is self explanatory. As for the hips being out wack due to the hump, yea, that’s something that would have stopped me from buying the truck in the first place, as there really isn’t a fix.

 

[Coullabus]

I drove old Defenders for 40 years. The older the less comfortable - the last generation, 2007 to 2016 were pretty comfortable, apart from the lack of elbow space!

 

[ADVAW8S]

I have a L663 and will be moving to a QM when my order arrives. I can say the L663 is comfortable and at times luxuries. I don't do crazy miles but about 11k a year and I am in my 5th year of ownership. At times I drive 4 to 6 hours and it is fine to drive. I ordered it custom so it has very little tech where I could get away with it. Manual seats, manual steering wheel but did spec it with the electric off-road packs and heated seats. Have I been happy with it, yes but then why am I switching? To much tech. The best example for me is when I was on a ferry going to one of the islands in the PNW. We were scheduled to disembark and I had the car in drive ready to go. I was parked on the upper portion of ferry and sitting on the ramp pointed downwards. There was a long delay before I was released to go. I stepped on gas and the car wouldn't move. I floored it and the car slowly moved forward. I am now getting yelled at by the ferry operators as they run a tight schedule. I try again and again. Nothing happens. I look at my gear selector and I am in drive. Look at my screen and nothing is indicating I am in park. Finally the ferry operator goes, check your emergency parking brake. I replied, I never put it on. He said check. So I did. Sure enough the car decided to put the brakes on because I was in drive to long. Nothing on dash told me it turned it on. I drove down the ramp but now had not brakes, warning started flashing that the brakes are not working and I would need to get it serviced. I would push pedal to floor and the brakes would slowly apply. I get to parking lot and think that the brakes are locked. I gun it forward and slam on the brakes. Nothing. Put it in reverse and execute the same move. This time they release and all warnings clear. At that point I was done with the Defender. I have had similar situations where the car has decided it knows what to do better than me. You can't avoid the electric influence from driving on or off road. If one system fails, it creates a cascading effect. I hope this helps.

 

[Zimm]

there’s really not much you can’t accomplish in a new defender that the ineos is going to do. I like the d90 with the rear seats removed or the d130 myself. I think the 110 is the compromise.

 

[vtgrenadier]

I feel your pain! Almost literally.

I was one of the first to buy a Volvo XC60 Cross Country. The seats in that car were sublime. Except after about 30 minutes of driving it, my right leg went numb. I tried for the next 90 days to find comfort and all manner of treatments... chiropractor, etc. The simple issue was: too much bolstering and too narrow a 'bucket.' I sold the car at a considerable loss and have never felt that discomfort in the dozen + cars since. Sometimes the car just doesn't 'fit,' no matter how objectively or subjectively 'good' it might be.

I am on my second current Defender... a 90 4 cyl. this time. For many of the same reasons at @ADVAW8S shared - manual seats + both off-road and advanced off-road packages. I've never had a negative experience in the driveline in nearly 40,000 miles (US) and over 3.5 years of total ownership, including many off-road miles. In fact, I've taken both new Defenders in places that my Tdi 90s and 110s struggled - granted, I've never had lockers in those vehicles. Yes, the radio goes out and the screen blanks intermittently, but never an issue with driving. I turn off the "brake hold" with two presses of the screen whenever I run it through a car wash (it will hold the brakes when in neutral for too long)... that is the closest I've come to the negative ferry experience shared above.

My Defender is my daily; my Grenadier is for fun and as stated in the past, is currently in winter storage to avoid corrosion.

 

[Zimm]

Depending on how you feel about losing an airbag, you can swap out to a scheel-Mann seat… I considered it, but went the tinker route and found it good enough not to die needlessly.

 

[vtgrenadier]

Mmm... Scheel-Manns... transformed the comfort of both of my most recent Land Rovers, but not sure how to solve the RHD foot pedal issue.

 

[Zimm]

you didnt sell that nice little 90 yet?

 

[Coullabus]

I feel your pain! Almost literally.

I was one of the first to buy a Volvo XC60 Cross Country. The seats in that car were sublime. Except after about 30 minutes of driving it, my right leg went numb. I tried for the next 90 days to find comfort and all manner of treatments... chiropractor, etc. The simple issue was: too much bolstering and too narrow a 'bucket.' I sold the car at a considerable loss and have never felt that discomfort in the dozen + cars since. Sometimes the car just doesn't 'fit,' no matter how objectively or subjectively 'good' it might be.

I am on my second current Defender... a 90 4 cyl. this time. For many of the same reasons at @ADVAW8S shared - manual seats + both off-road and advanced off-road packages. I've never had a negative experience in the driveline in nearly 40,000 miles (US) and over 3.5 years of total ownership, including many off-road miles. In fact, I've taken both new Defenders in places that my Tdi 90s and 110s struggled - granted, I've never had lockers in those vehicles. Yes, the radio goes out and the screen blanks intermittently, but never an issue with driving. I turn off the "brake hold" with two presses of the screen whenever I run it through a car wash (it will hold the brakes when in neutral for too long)... that is the closest I've come to the negative ferry experience shared above.

My Defender is my daily; my Grenadier is for fun and as stated in the past, is currently in winter storage to avoid corrosion.

I have to say my 2018 XC90 has the most comfortable and supportive seats i have EVER had in a vehicle The Recaro in my Grenadier may indeed be a few inches narrower than a man of my girth would prefer, but not real problems

 

[Zimm]

I have to say my 2018 XC90 has the most comfortable and supportive seats i have EVER had in a vehicle The Recaro in my Grenadier may indeed be a few inches narrower than a man of my girth would prefer, but not real problems

Git in ma' belly!

 

[drof14850]

Feel your pain, have struggled with the seat comfort, but don't drive my Grenadier every day. My daily driver is a Man tge van, VW crafter with a different badge. This I do regular trips from the UK south coast to west coast Scotland. Never a problem with back pain, even though it has a raised foot rest the same as a grenadier and an upright seating position but the big difference is adjustable front bolster and lumbar support.
For me I am intending to get the seats modified having a lumbar support fitted and possibly front bolster. Always found it strange they were never fitted as standard as pretty much every other manufacturer does.
Its not as if its a cheep vehicle to purchase! Have made some inquiries about seat mods and will update when have responses.

 

[Jimmiovskio]

Feel your pain, have struggled with the seat comfort, but don't drive my Grenadier every day. My daily driver is a Man tge van, VW crafter with a different badge. This I do regular trips from the UK south coast to west coast Scotland. Never a problem with back pain, even though it has a raised foot rest the same as a grenadier and an upright seating position but the big difference is adjustable front bolster and lumbar support.
For me I am intending to get the seats modified having a lumbar support fitted and possibly front bolster. Always found it strange they were never fitted as standard as pretty much every other manufacturer does.
Its not as if its a cheep vehicle to purchase! Have made some inquiries about seat mods and will update when have responses.

From what I can tell of the LHD it has a much, much better set up in the footwell so there’s no lopsided stuff going on with the feet and legs. That would make a world of difference so there’s legs are similarly aligned most of the time.

I know I’ve had problems elsewhere with the Grenadier but I really do want to love it and would be disappointed after waiting so long to have to let it go but I can’t be debilitated by it every day.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Interesting discussion. Had a new Volvo XC60 with the heated/cooled/massage seats and had to sell it after 6 months because it caused pain in my left leg and hip. Those seats were definitely a case of style over comfort and nothing like as good as the plush Volvo seats of old. Regarding the grenadier I looked at buying one in the UK when they first came out and did a couple of test drives but I found the floor hump massively uncomfortable even on a short drive, so while I liked the car I wasn’t prepared to buy one and risk repeating my Volvo experience. When I moved to France I test drove a LHD grenadier and found it to be ergonomically really good so I ended up buying one and now having done 4000km I’m really happy with it. Very comfortable for me. I’m 6’4” and 96kg

 

[Jiman01]

This is a genuine post from a somewhat frustrated Fieldmaster owner

In the 6 months of ownership, I’ve had a load of niggles - faulty shockers, faulty Low Range shift, the abominable HVAC and a creaking dashboard so annoying I want to have the car crushed.

At the same time, slowly and at first un-noticably, I have become utterly crippled with lower back pain. I have finally realised - driving the Grenadier for between 3-4 hours on weekdays, the seats, lack of lower back support or adjustment and the infamous RHD foot rest is the cause. I’m 180cm and 170lbs - I should have no problems - but I can just no longer get comfortable - the constantly raised left leg no matter what the seating position is twisting my hip joint. If I put the seat on its lowest position the steering wheels is too high and far away - if I have it on its highest position - I can’t put the seat far enough back to stretch my legs. Ergonomically it’s inexplicably poor and something you only realise with hundreds of hours of driving it.

So I’m left feeling physically drained by the sheer hard work of owning this Grenadier. I used to have classic Land Rover Defender 90’s and 110’s and I never struggled to get comfortable.

I need a car with this level of capability though - I live on a former farm in the middle of nowhere and the terrain and weather is extreme for the UK. In the UK our choice of vehicle is limited. It’s either the Grenadier, a Defender, the hard to come by and crazily priced new Land Cruiser or a plethora of pickups.

So I’ve found myself eyeing up the new Defender 110/130. I know this is not the place to seek LR recommendations but I’d like opinions whether I should try to stick with the Grenadier and any genuine thoughts on the Defender as a capable vehicle?

The Defender seems far superior in the interior - the seats, driving position and comfort are a world ahead of the Grenadier. They’re also cheaper - believe it or not - even when you add even more bells and whistles - they can be had for a lot less than the Grenadier.

Land Rover and technology/infotainment screens aren’t synonymous with reliability - but there too, I’ve found the Grenadier poor - to say it’s a re-skimmed BMW system is baffling such are its flaws and bugs, ghost warnings and alerts etc.

So I guess my questions are:

Are there things I can do to get along with my Grenadier?

Are my experiences rare or are we all a bit too forgiving?

Thoughts in the new Defender?

Any other suggestions for the UK market?

Thanks all,

I traded in my ‘23 Defender for a Trialmaster.
View attachment IMG_3968.jpeg

The ND is objectively more comfortable and well finished in almost every metric. And for most, the ND will successfully get through any obstacle thrown its way. I didn’t own mine for very long, but I have no complaints. I had no issues and everything worked as designed. I thought the infotainment was fine. Mine was not temperamental or glitchy at all. There was no lag, very responsive and intuitive (YMMV).

The answer to the obvious question of why I prefer the IG over the ND is that I tend to hold onto my vehicles for 10+ yrs, and I wasn’t confident that the ND would go that long without significant expense. I could have enjoyed the ND for a few more years and traded it once the warranty expired but I needed the higher residuals to afford the IG. There’s obviously risk in owning a new vehicle/brand but being able to read about the European rollout before they came to the US gave me confidence that there was a greater chance for success than failure.

From an emotional perspective, the ND is a beautiful truck…at least the one I got, but there’s something about the IG and it’s more traditional lines that I prefer more.

Can’t offer any suggestion to improve the IG’s comfort since mine is LHD. Good luck to you brother.

 

[wolftimj]

What about a left hand drive Gren? Not sure that’s even possible over there. I do occasionally see older RHD vehicles over here.

I love my Gren, but there’s no way I’m selling my Range Rover. So much more comfortable on longer drives. If I were in your place I’d probably try to find a low mileage V8 LR4 (or whatever they are badged over there).

 

[jspann]

This is a genuine post from a somewhat frustrated Fieldmaster owner

In the 6 months of ownership, I’ve had a load of niggles - faulty shockers, faulty Low Range shift, the abominable HVAC and a creaking dashboard so annoying I want to have the car crushed.

At the same time, slowly and at first un-noticably, I have become utterly crippled with lower back pain. I have finally realised - driving the Grenadier for between 3-4 hours on weekdays, the seats, lack of lower back support or adjustment and the infamous RHD foot rest is the cause. I’m 180cm and 170lbs - I should have no problems - but I can just no longer get comfortable - the constantly raised left leg no matter what the seating position is twisting my hip joint. If I put the seat on its lowest position the steering wheels is too high and far away - if I have it on its highest position - I can’t put the seat far enough back to stretch my legs. Ergonomically it’s inexplicably poor and something you only realise with hundreds of hours of driving it.

So I’m left feeling physically drained by the sheer hard work of owning this Grenadier. I used to have classic Land Rover Defender 90’s and 110’s and I never struggled to get comfortable.

I need a car with this level of capability though - I live on a former farm in the middle of nowhere and the terrain and weather is extreme for the UK. In the UK our choice of vehicle is limited. It’s either the Grenadier, a Defender, the hard to come by and crazily priced new Land Cruiser or a plethora of pickups.

So I’ve found myself eyeing up the new Defender 110/130. I know this is not the place to seek LR recommendations but I’d like opinions whether I should try to stick with the Grenadier and any genuine thoughts on the Defender as a capable vehicle?

The Defender seems far superior in the interior - the seats, driving position and comfort are a world ahead of the Grenadier. They’re also cheaper - believe it or not - even when you add even more bells and whistles - they can be had for a lot less than the Grenadier.

Land Rover and technology/infotainment screens aren’t synonymous with reliability - but there too, I’ve found the Grenadier poor - to say it’s a re-skimmed BMW system is baffling such are its flaws and bugs, ghost warnings and alerts etc.

So I guess my questions are:

Are there things I can do to get along with my Grenadier?

Are my experiences rare or are we all a bit too forgiving?

Thoughts in the new Defender?

Any other suggestions for the UK market?

Thanks all,

I understand your frustration. My wife drives a 2024 Defender and when I get home from work and she wants to go out to dinner, I always say “let’s take your car “. And when I sit in it, it does feel more comfortable. I still prefer to drive my Grenadier daily though. I describe the vehicle as a “ blunt instrument “. Sometimes what we think we will enjoy and reality are not the same. You should probably get into another vehicle and not force yourself to adapt to the Grenadier. It’s not for everyone. Good luck with finding a solution.
John Spann
Chattanooga, TN

 

[Tom109]

@Jimmiovskio - sorry to hear about your physical discomfort. I hope you get that sorted, even if switching vehicles.

About Volvos,I’ve only ever driven 2003 and earlier. The seats were 100% not compatible with my body. Absolutely horrible. Turned me off to any future Volvo, except maybe a 303.