Lynn Calder questions agency modell

In a recently done interview with Lynn Calder she questions the agency sales model, which is in place in some (not all) countries. This model was choosen by many manufacturers when there were more demand for cars, then it is now. More and more OEMS turn away from the agency model.

When asked what Calder would do differently with the next vehicle, the conversation quickly turns to the topic of distribution and the journey of the Grenadier to the customer. Depending on the market, Ineos currently sells its vehicles through dealers (as in Germany), direct sales via the agency model, or through a general importer.
Calder has doubts about the success of the agency model. "It was conceived at a time when high demand for vehicles made implementation much easier," says Calder.
These conditions are no longer valid. As a new manufacturer without much experience, it is evident that there are good reasons to leave sales to the dealers. Additionally, the administrative burden was underestimated, such as customer service with call centers or vehicle registration in various markets.
Calder’s conclusion is, "I am not convinced that the agency model aligns OEMs and dealers in a way that benefits the customers."

AWo

 

[AngusMacG]

Agency model vs. manufacturer direct have cost/benefits for everyone involved. I would say that neither provides any better benefit for the consumer.

 

[MrMike]

Agency model vs. manufacturer direct have cost/benefits for everyone involved. I would say that neither provides any better benefit for the consumer.

I know my agent has difficulty with stock as it's controlled by IA, he said it would be better for them to be in control. This is obviously not the case in NA.

 

[DaveB]

Now that I have mine I really don't care what they do.
I won't be buying another one unless I suddenly get a lot of unexpected money

 

[AngusMacG]

Now that I have mine I really don't care what they do.
I won't be buying another one unless I suddenly get a lot of unexpected money

You would have to build another shed for it

 

[TD5-90]

Maybe it is worth mentioning that in the said interview Calder talks about ~30.000 vehicles that will be built this year.
Obviously, there are (large...) corners on the planet where the grenadier is more welcome than in central Europe

 

[AWo]

Maybe it is worth mentioning that in the said interview Calder talks about ~30.000 vehicles that will be built this year.
Obviously, there are (large...) corners on the planet where the grenadier is more welcome than in central Europe

30.000 was also the plan for 2023....just that she speaks out that number doesn't mean that this will happen.

AWo

 

[TD5-90]

30.000 was also the plan for 2023....just that she speaks out that number doesn't mean that this will happen.

Would be very interesting where you got that figure from?

2023 was the first (real...) year of production. With the usual (and possibly unusual...) difficulties of any series production of any technologically challenging product. A ramp up from zero to any significant figure is something else than a second or third year.

If production really was ~2000 in the first 6 months so far, what's so unplausible about 30k? Even if it's 25.000 in the end you would call this a failure I assume...

 

[AWo]

1. Some Automotive media reported this number...auto-motor-sport, auto-motor-sport even reports up to 40.000 unitxs for 2023 in February 2023.

Everything We Know About the Ineos Grenadier | Capital One Auto Navigator

This Land Rover Defender knockoff looks to be an old-fashioned SUV.

www.capitalone.com

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de...road-defender-bmw-daten-preise-verkaufsstart/
https://de.motor1.com/reviews/695688/ineos-grenadier-test-offroad-strasse/

Confirmed: The Lilienthals are Driving an INEOS Grenadier in the 2024 Alcan 5000 Rally!

OVR got the insider scoop: We're driving an INEOS Grenadier in the 2024 Alcan 5000 Rally!

www.ovrmag.com

Already in 2020: https://magazine.dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2020/07/03/ratcliffe-takes-wraps-off-ineos-grenadier/

2. From my chats with Dirk Heilmann and Mark Tennant (already in 2018).

I can speak freely about that, as when the media got that information, I do not consider that as an internal secret.

BTW, here are a links of videos I recorded when JR talks about the Grenadier in 2017 in the Grenadier pub....he critizies that other 4x4 are not lightweight (at 02:02)...funny....in a second one Dirk says teh challenge is to keep it "affordable"...

View: https://youtu.be/DcRJPXOtKOo

View: https://youtu.be/bkvAquSECZc


AWo

 

[255/85]

Are Grenadiers expensive? Yes, but considering what you get for the money, they are "affordable" or nearly so. Component-wise you're not getting ripped off. It's the dealer model that adds cost in the US.

 

[AWo]

Yes, you may be right. But I take also in consideration which price Ineos itself targeted in the beginning. That started around 40k....Things you can find also in the media.

Remember...in Germany the Grenadier started in April 2022 with 59,990 Euros and where are is it now without getting more...

IMHO for the price of the Grenadier you get more from other brands. You may not like what other brands offer, but it is more what you get. I had an VW Amarok Panamericana for a while. It offers far more than the IG and it starts with 71k. It is of course not that kind of 4x4, no question, but again, you still get the same IG for more money now. Was it cheaper than the Amarok once, is it now more expensive while offering the same as before.

I wrote it once here, and I quoted Dr. Fritz Indra, the famous German motor engineer, who said once: When you make a car more expensive you can only sell it, if the customer gains more value for it than the former cheaper modell. Making the same car more expensive doesn't work. We'll se if he will be right.

AWo

 

[DaveB]

In Australia the competitors are

• Landcruiser 76 series
  View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZNOBHAOUxQ
  
• Landcruiser 300
  View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQqTIwjBQB0
  
• Nissan Patrol
  View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cjyUYu0YQU&t=974s
  
• Landcruiser 110
  View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz5BgEnU4cM&list=PLG5Om1_yP8jlcLVzHc8SzyERlqH9jmwJR&index=7
  

Grenadier is price competitive against them and has positives and negatives as far as features go depending on your use case, needs and wants.

 

[255/85]

Yes, you may be right. But I take also in consideration which price Ineos itself targeted in the beginning. That started around 40k....Things you can find also in the media.

I will not deny that I had hoped the Grenadier would sell for that initial 40K price but I also think it would have been a very different vehicle. As recently as one month before we purchased our IG weI had a chance to buy a new Jeep JLU (4 door) Wrangler for slightly over $40K (USD). In the end we had to admit that (barring the unknown longevity of either Ineos Automotive or the true lifespan of a Grenadier) the two vehicles were completely different animals. The new $40K Jeep, by comparison, was tinny, cramped, and cheaply constructed. I felt vulnerable driving it. I don't feel that way in a Grenadier. I don't think a stripped down Grenadier (without what? basic cruise control perhaps or a radio? Maybe lose the key option?) could have cost less than $10K under its current sticker price. It would have had to become a direct competitor to a Jeep in every way to do so. I must ask "why bother?".

We, perhaps like you, prefer simpler vehicles. We still own and drive several. One of those is a 24 year old Jeep that we purchased new for $20K. It is a modest and reasonably durable little car with 170K miles (274K km) on the odometer. We have always felt it to have been worth every penny. Despite this previous experience, and though we could have purchased two new Jeeps for price of the Grenadier, we chose to stick with Ineos. Yes, there are risks with an unknown product like the Grenadier, but the sense that we would not be getting our money's worth with the new Jeep was so strong that we couldn't ignore it. We felt similarly about the other offerings available be it Toyota or Ford or JLR.

Remember...in Germany the Grenadier started in April 2022 with 59,990 Euros and where are is it now without getting more...

IMHO for the price of the Grenadier you get more from other brands. You may not like what other brands offer, but it is more what you get. I had an VW Amarok Panamericana for a while. It offers far more than the IG and it starts with 71k. It is of course not that kind of 4x4, no question, but again, you still get the same IG for more money now. Was it cheaper than the Amarok once, is it now more expensive while offering the same as before.

I wrote it once here, and I quoted Dr. Fritz Indra, the famous German motor engineer, who said once: When you make a car more expensive you can only sell it, if the customer gains more value for it than the former cheaper modell. Making the same car more expensive doesn't work. We'll se if he will be right.

AWo

Sir, I fear you may be conflating inflation with price gouging? It may be arbitrary as to when SIr Jim decides to close the purse and begin to realize profit on his investment but it will happen at some point. In this case it happened at an inopportune time for many reservation holders - us included.

I have never seen a substantial decrease in the price of durable goods. (We must ignore the elevated pricing of new technology as a very temporary phenomenon.) All things increase in price over time. It's the basic modus operandi of quasi-freely operating economies it seems. Even if we disagree as to what to value (this vs. that or Amarok vs Jeep) the fact remains that an item will almost certainly cost more tomorrow. The two Jeeps we could have bought would only appear to be a better deal if both were purchased today. Using my above example of current Jeep prices and those two decades ago - If we purchased one now and another in 20 years hence, the second one will have doubled in price providing we could even buy it.

By that metric, along with our subjective assessment of value between the two brands (and the other options readily available to the US market), we felt a Grenadier in the hand to be worth two jeeps in the bush - despite the current elevated price. I still think a direct sales model would have worked better in North America providing a service partner could be found.

 

[TD5-90]

C'mon AWo, let's be honest and realistic:

Everything We Know About the Ineos Grenadier | Capital One Auto Navigator

This Land Rover Defender knockoff looks to be an old-fashioned SUV.

www.capitalone.com

To be precise, it's said there: "...The company hopes to roll 25,000-30,000 units off the line each year..." Which year? They are not saying it. Year 5 after stabilized production?
Every reasonable person would expect this process to take time.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de...road-defender-bmw-daten-preise-verkaufsstart/
https://de.motor1.com/reviews/695688/ineos-grenadier-test-offroad-strasse/https://de.motor1.com/reviews/695688/ineos-grenadier-test-offroad-strasse/

Same or similar here.

[Other quotes] :
No need to comment on pre-Corona statements, agreed?

No offense intended, but: From most of your recent posts I feel you are somehow personally embarrassed with IA and/or the Grenadier. Is that possible? I don't know about your exact involvement with IA, but obviously you think they should have listened more to you than they actually did...

 

[Tazzieman]

I have no doubt a $40k Grenadier copy will emanate from China. But it will cost $80k in NA., 60k in Europe.

 

[landmannnn]

That 40k target was never going to be achieved. (I think it was £, so more like 50k USD)
The old Defender 110 was £44k in 2015, so even if JLR had sold the rights it would be well over £60k ($75US) today.

 

[Shaky]

That 40k target was never going to be achieved. (I think it was £, so more like 50k USD)
The old Defender 110 was £44k in 2015, so even if JLR had sold the rights it would be well over £60k ($75US) today.

Agreed the 40k was always in GBP, and was never really going to be achieved and the vehicle would have been made out of egg boxes to get down to $40k.

Also like you say, the old defender was around £44k 9yrs ago. So £60k today would be realistic, that is just £3k less than my Grenny cost me (plus on the road costs).

The vehicle still needs refining electronically and the user interfaces for sure, but if it was made cheaper, how much would people have to spend to get the vehicle back to where it is now or how they want it.

Toyota has a good name but it’s never really mentioned about all the changes that owners make including the axle correction, which I dread to think what that costs to do properly. Sure you could use spacers but that is the best recipe for disaster imo.

Horses for courses.

 

[AWo]

C'mon AWo, let's be honest and realistic:

To be precise, it's said there: "...The company hopes to roll 25,000-30,000 units off the line each year..." Which year? They are not saying it. Year 5 after stabilized production?
Every reasonable person would expect this process to take time.

Same or similar here.

[Other quotes] :
No need to comment on pre-Corona statements, agreed?

No offense intended, but: From most of your recent posts I feel you are somehow personally embarrassed with IA and/or the Grenadier. Is that possible? I don't know about your exact involvement with IA, but obviously you think they should have listened more to you than they actually did...

One wrotes "25k to 30k each year". That involves 2023 for me too. Auto-Motor-Sport wrotes from 2023 the numer of units should be increased to 30k to 40k units. One one wrotes "The INEOS Grenadier’s evolution is evident. Though INEOS Automotive is a boutique manufacturer with a sales goal of just 30,000 units globally its first year,"...for me there is no question, And you ignore that this number was told me personally.

My involvment....? I'm not allowed to send you a PN, so I can't tell you....however, I'm not embarassed, I just tell you facts and facts are never emotional involved. When it is my personell opinion, you will know and see that this is my personell opinion.

AWo