Lithium Aux Battery Upgrade, chasing advice Victron vs Redarc

[Darby]

Hey all, looking at doing the following:
1. Switching the aux battery to a lithium with a new dcdc + solar charger + aux battery monitor

Initially considering the following hardware:
- Victron LiFePO4 Battery 12.8V/200Ah NG
- Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/20
- Victron Orion XS DC/DC 50A
- Victron SmartShunt 500A/50mV (?300A vs 500A)

But I since read the Victron NG Battery documents which states it is mandatory to pair it with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS NG which is over 1k alone. My autoelectrictian doesn't believe I will need it but I'm worried about losing battery warranty if I don't. As I understand most good Lithium batteries have a decent BMS built in?

I also since stumbled across the Redarc BCDC Alpha 50 which has Solar and DCDC built in, and potentially could be a neater install under the back seats. I would pair it with the Redarc smart battery monitor.

My questions being:
1. Would I be better off going Redarc for a cleaner under seat install? (My auto electrician is also more familiar with Redarc, will also be installing brake controller and rewiring my EXT3 output to the aux battery)
2. Anyone know good alternative Lithium batteries? The Redarc 150aH one is very expensive also.
3. Open to advice on other Redarc components etc.

Cheers,
Robert

 

[anand]

Having installed my own system (Victron MPPT, Victron Orion XS, Victron BMV-712, Victron Cerbo GX, Victron Inverter, Dakota Lithium 135Ah battery) as well as helped with @TWExplor 's system (Redarc 150Ah battery, Redarc BCDC Alpha 50) there are some definite differences.

First off, you're right, because Victron batteries require an external BMS it definitely adds to the cost; if you could find last year's non-NG battery in stock at a supplier, that would work with the VE.Bus BMS (or SmallBMS depending on what other aspects you're adding or needing). Also remember that the Lynx BMS takes the place of the SmartShunt, so there is some cost overlap. Virtually all other name brand LiFePO4 batteries have internal BMS's at this time; Victron shifting towards the Lynx BMS exclusively for the NGs helps to integrate their batteries into full Victron electrical systems using the Power-In and Lynx Distributors. These systems are fantastic for their normal uses (Caravans, boats, off grid properties) but take up more room than the average overland/off road vehicle has to offer; unfortunately it isn't a target market for Victron from what I've seen. Victron is very much a system as a whole and huge on integration across components; Redarc on the other hand isn't (commonly) used in off grid homes or the marine world, and is only starting to get into the integration world (Manager30, TVMS, etc)

One thing to consider with the BCDC Alpha 50 is that its maximum output is 50A (really 55A) combined from both DC-DC and solar inputs. Of course this could be an absolute non-issue, and really if you have <100w of solar it isn't a massive difference; but if you are able to fit 200+ watts of solar on the roof, that's a loss of 30% of potential charging power whilst driving. With a 200Ah battery that's almost an hour more drive time to recharge from near flat to full.

Additionally the Redarc's solar requirements are different than Victron's (Victron MPPT controllers require your panel voltage to be >5v higher than battery voltage before charging initiates); also the Redarc only accepts up to 48v on the solar input, Victron offers MPPT controllers ranging from 75-250volts (I understand they offer additional controllers that can accept higher solar voltages, but no one is running enough in series to get that sort of voltage on an overland vehicle of this size).

For other good battery options: Dakota lithium, Battle Born, and Lion Energy are all big names here in the US; but use what you can get where you are and either go with a local shop/auto electrician that sells what you want, or be willing to want what they sell.

Back to my choice in Victron... I'm very comfortable and familiar with it after using Victron components on my Tundra (110Ah AGM battery, Victron smart shunt, inverter, MPPT) and Sprinter (700Ah of Battle Born LiFePO4, SmartShunt, Cerbo GX, GX Touch, BatteryProtect, 3x Orion Tr 30A DC-DC, 2x MPPTs, Multiplus 3k VA Inverter/Charger); I'm a huge fan of integration of systems and data in general, and I enjoy being able to view all the vehicle related info through the Victron portal (as well as adding bluetooth temperature sensors both inside and outside, GPS tracking, etc) from anywhere in the world with internet access (I've added both Starlink and 5G to the Grenadier and the Sprinter both). There is nothing wrong with the Redarc stuff at all, and it fits the bill for many people that want a simple system with fewer pieces

 

[Rok_Dr]

Hey all, looking at doing the following:
1. Switching the aux battery to a lithium with a new dcdc + solar charger + aux battery monitor

Initially considering the following hardware:
- Victron LiFePO4 Battery 12.8V/200Ah NG
- Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/20
- Victron Orion XS DC/DC 50A
- Victron SmartShunt 500A/50mV (?300A vs 500A)

But I since read the Victron NG Battery documents which states it is mandatory to pair it with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS NG which is over 1k alone. My autoelectrictian doesn't believe I will need it but I'm worried about losing battery warranty if I don't. As I understand most good Lithium batteries have a decent BMS built in?

I also since stumbled across the Redarc BCDC Alpha 50 which has Solar and DCDC built in, and potentially could be a neater install under the back seats. I would pair it with the Redarc smart battery monitor.

My questions being:
1. Would I be better off going Redarc for a cleaner under seat install? (My auto electrician is also more familiar with Redarc, will also be installing brake controller and rewiring my EXT3 output to the aux battery)
2. Anyone know good alternative Lithium batteries? The Redarc 150aH one is very expensive also.
3. Open to advice on other Redarc components etc.

Cheers,
Robert

Hi Robert

I'm currently putting together an aux battery box with a DCDC/solar charger. I didn't consider replacing the standard dual battery system as my preference is to keep the car reasonably standard and having a portable system allows other family members to use it when required.

After a lot of research I decided to use a Redarc Alpha 50 as its specs more than cover my use case. I could have gotten away using the 25amp model but found the 50 amp one on special with little difference in price at the end of the day. I may de-rate it to 30amps in the settings.

As you noted it has both solar and DCDC, but it also can be monitored and configured using bluetooth. It also has some reverse charging functionality where you can use the Auxiliary battery to charge the starter battery for 15 minutes (very useful if your Lithium battery doesn't support high current draws) or use solar to charge the starter battery when the Aux battery is charged.

From memory the other Redarc DCDC/Solar chargers don't have bluetooth and Victron unfortunately doesn't combine solar and DCDC functionality in one device at present. My shunt preference FWIW is the Victron 500amp smart shunt and use the Victron connect app to monitor.

Working out good lithium battery brands is a bit of a nightmare as there is a lot of snake oil advertising and FUD statements out there. From my research many brands will use Chinese BMS systems (Jiabaida is a name that often pops up) and cells, assemble them in standard size battery cases and slap their branding on the case. Most newer batteries will have a BMS with Bluetooth monitoring so this may mitigate the need for a Shunt. Smaller brands will use the BMS manufacturers generic monitoring app while bigger brands will have their own app or rebadge the generic one. Prices are also all over the place ATM but generally are dropping. I'd strongly recommend seeking the advice of your auto sparky on this as they will have more exposure to what is out there.

Cheers
Steve

​

 

[Darby]

Having installed my own system (Victron MPPT, Victron Orion XS, Victron BMV-712, Victron Cerbo GX, Victron Inverter, Dakota Lithium 135Ah battery) as well as helped with @TWExplor 's system (Redarc 150Ah battery, Redarc BCDC Alpha 50) there are some definite differences.

First off, you're right, because Victron batteries require an external BMS it definitely adds to the cost; if you could find last year's non-NG battery in stock at a supplier, that would work with the VE.Bus BMS (or SmallBMS depending on what other aspects you're adding or needing). Also remember that the Lynx BMS takes the place of the SmartShunt, so there is some cost overlap. Virtually all other name brand LiFePO4 batteries have internal BMS's at this time; Victron shifting towards the Lynx BMS exclusively for the NGs helps to integrate their batteries into full Victron electrical systems using the Power-In and Lynx Distributors. These systems are fantastic for their normal uses (Caravans, boats, off grid properties) but take up more room than the average overland/off road vehicle has to offer; unfortunately it isn't a target market for Victron from what I've seen. Victron is very much a system as a whole and huge on integration across components; Redarc on the other hand isn't (commonly) used in off grid homes or the marine world, and is only starting to get into the integration world (Manager30, TVMS, etc)

One thing to consider with the BCDC Alpha 50 is that its maximum output is 50A (really 55A) combined from both DC-DC and solar inputs. Of course this could be an absolute non-issue, and really if you have <100w of solar it isn't a massive difference; but if you are able to fit 200+ watts of solar on the roof, that's a loss of 30% of potential charging power whilst driving. With a 200Ah battery that's almost an hour more drive time to recharge from near flat to full.

Additionally the Redarc's solar requirements are different than Victron's (Victron MPPT controllers require your panel voltage to be >5v higher than battery voltage before charging initiates); also the Redarc only accepts up to 48v on the solar input, Victron offers MPPT controllers ranging from 75-250volts (I understand they offer additional controllers that can accept higher solar voltages, but no one is running enough in series to get that sort of voltage on an overland vehicle of this size).

For other good battery options: Dakota lithium, Battle Born, and Lion Energy are all big names here in the US; but use what you can get where you are and either go with a local shop/auto electrician that sells what you want, or be willing to want what they sell.

Back to my choice in Victron... I'm very comfortable and familiar with it after using Victron components on my Tundra (110Ah AGM battery, Victron smart shunt, inverter, MPPT) and Sprinter (700Ah of Battle Born LiFePO4, SmartShunt, Cerbo GX, GX Touch, BatteryProtect, 3x Orion Tr 30A DC-DC, 2x MPPTs, Multiplus 3k VA Inverter/Charger); I'm a huge fan of integration of systems and data in general, and I enjoy being able to view all the vehicle related info through the Victron portal (as well as adding bluetooth temperature sensors both inside and outside, GPS tracking, etc) from anywhere in the world with internet access (I've added both Starlink and 5G to the Grenadier and the Sprinter both). There is nothing wrong with the Redarc stuff at all, and it fits the bill for many people that want a simple system with fewer pieces

Thanks for the information and your point of view!

I guess I am beginning to like the modular way of the Victron system more and more, and luckily I think the Ineos has a decent amount of space under the rear seats for a simple setup.

I am only planning on portable solar panels currently but may consider fixed panels on the roof top tent in future so I will keep that in mind also.

I have been asking in local groups for opinions on batteries and here in Australia/Perth ATG seems a good midrange option, and I am considering the following:
https://atgbatteryshop.com.au/produ...-battery-pre-order-now?variant=50287194472723
ATG 150AH 12V LiFePO4 Battery.

Update: I just placed an order for the Victron Orion XS, Smartsolar 100/20 and SmartShunt!

 

[Darby]

Hi Robert

I'm currently putting together an aux battery box with a DCDC/solar charger. I didn't consider replacing the standard dual battery system as my preference is to keep the car reasonably standard and having a portable system allows other family members to use it when required.

After a lot of research I decided to use a Redarc Alpha 50 as its specs more than cover my use case. I could have gotten away using the 25amp model but found the 50 amp one on special with little difference in price at the end of the day. I may de-rate it to 30amps in the settings.

As you noted it has both solar and DCDC, but it also can be monitored and configured using bluetooth. It also has some reverse charging functionality where you can use the Auxiliary battery to charge the starter battery for 15 minutes (very useful if your Lithium battery doesn't support high current draws) or use solar to charge the starter battery when the Aux battery is charged.

From memory the other Redarc DCDC/Solar chargers don't have bluetooth and Victron unfortunately doesn't combine solar and DCDC functionality in one device at present. My shunt preference FWIW is the Victron 500amp smart shunt and use the Victron connect app to monitor.

Working out good lithium battery brands is a bit of a nightmare as there is a lot of snake oil advertising and FUD statements out there. From my research many brands will use Chinese BMS systems (Jiabaida is a name that often pops up) and cells, assemble them in standard size battery cases and slap their branding on the case. Most newer batteries will have a BMS with Bluetooth monitoring so this may mitigate the need for a Shunt. Smaller brands will use the BMS manufacturers generic monitoring app while bigger brands will have their own app or rebadge the generic one. Prices are also all over the place ATM but generally are dropping. I'd strongly recommend seeking the advice of your auto sparky on this as they will have more exposure to what is out there.

Cheers
Steve

​

I was considering an Aux battery box, but given I am tighter for space when I do go on offroad trips, all boot space helps and I want to rewire the roof outlets given I use them a lot for lights and electronics inside the roof top tent, so replacing the current AUX battery was the way to go for me.

Yeah good to know, the battery I am currently considering has the Jiabiada BMS w/ bluetooth (ATG 150AH 12V LiFePO4 Battery), will continue to look around but seems to have great feedback in the community for what you pay.

I'll continue to look around, and bounce it off my spark again, cheers!

 

[Rok_Dr]

I was considering an Aux battery box, but given I am tighter for space when I do go on offroad trips, all boot space helps and I want to rewire the roof outlets given I use them a lot for lights and electronics inside the roof top tent, so replacing the current AUX battery was the way to go for me.

Yeah good to know, the battery I am currently considering has the Jiabiada BMS w/ bluetooth (ATG 150AH 12V LiFePO4 Battery), will continue to look around but seems to have great feedback in the community for what you pay.

I'll continue to look around, and bounce it off my spark again, cheers!

Yes that ATG 150amp hr battery is on my short list as well.

Cheers
Steve

 

[TheDocAUS]

The higher end Lithium bateries include RedArc, Invicta and Invicta Zeal. @ninetubes installed an Amptron from memory. Better batteries have warranty around 5 or more years like Invicta and Mueller (Amptron 4 or 5 years). A 2 year warranty does not show much confidence from the manufacturer.

Mueller Energy has some very interesting options as well.

Special rules apply if you intend to sleep in the car with a Lithium battery installed, see Australian Standard here.