Land Rover feeling the Heat?

[Norb-TX]

I just got a fancy brochure in the mail from Land Rover for the Defender. Timing a coincidence? Anyway, with IA just importing 5000 a year, I doubt LR thinks they are in much trouble.

 

[Krabby]

I just got a fancy brochure in the mail from Land Rover for the Defender. Timing a coincidence? Anyway, with IA just importing 5000 a year, I doubt LR thinks they are in much trouble.

Unsolicited?

 

[anand]

I just got a fancy brochure in the mail from Land Rover for the Defender. Timing a coincidence? Anyway, with IA just importing 5000 a year, I doubt LR thinks they are in much trouble.

5,500 units a year is over 1/3 of the 2022 Defender sales figures (a number that was down 18% over 2021) in the US. Even at that low of an annual production, that's a substantial possible loss of customer base

 

[Norb-TX]

Totally unsolicited.

 

[DCPU]

5,500 units a year is over 1/3 of the 2022 Defender sales figures (a number that was down 18% over 2021) in the US. Even at that low of an annual production, that's a substantial possible loss of customer base

I think JLR are still hamstrung by parts availability and whilst looking to prioritise those models they make the most on, are also having to service orders for the other models.

 

[curb-optional]

I think (just IMO) JLR is in a stew of their own making. The ND was a huge deal to get right, and if they spend more time trying to make ND better, they would have nothing to worry about from Grenadier, or Toyota LC or their Lexus GX Overtrail that's heading to the US. I think JLR is wasting time manufacturing widgets (Velar, Disco Sport, and Evoke), and at the same time poking fun at the off road crowd by offering ND with 22" rims and a glass roof. JLR is doing everything to make the ND a RR trim, instead of just keeping ND separate and going "all in" with a durable off road ready suv. Because JLR refused to offer18" rims, thick tires, and a solid (functional) roof, the GX Over trail now offers all that standard. Poking fun at the off road crowd has penalties, and JLR egged that GX into existence by pretending not to hear consumer complaints on the ND trims available. The ND is graviting more to the G Wagon crowd: lots of potential, but the drivers will never do anything difficult with the SUV, as the costs to repair a Mercedes - even a rugged G Wagon - are crazy expensive. It's the same thing with the Lexus LX - great bones, but who's going to take a lux mobile camping? The ND interior is the best on the market for adventure driving - space and easy to clean; comfortable but not flashy. If JLR stopped wasting time with the delusion there is no such thing as an adventure driver, they would suddenly realize that 18" rims would be fine (who cares about 0-60 speeds?!), and would put some good tires on the rig, maybe a front and rear bumper you could stand on, and fit ND with an actual roof (something you could stand on while loading). I know, ND is supposed to be bought by folks that want a RR, but for some reason buy the RR trim ND. Ugh. I have an old LR and love it. But I won't buy a ND with a glass roof and I'd prefer 18" rims, and I'll eventually test drive the Grenadier when it's in showrooms. I don't care how fast it goes - it just can't break down. A very critical part of an adventure is returning, and if there is too much tech controlling the SUV, there's a chance some of that goes awry when you're 300 miles from home. Do they really think selling a V8 with no roof rack ability and 22" rims is a better advertisement to the outdoor adventure crowd than something you can drive more slowly over rocks without puncturing a tire and then use the roof for packing? The the V8 is a mall rat envy machine; you're just trying to bait compliments. I think if JLR focused on the core LR off road community with ND, they would do fine vs. Toyota and Grenadier. I sat in a 4Runner once - the good ground clearance with a low SUV height meant the back seat was squished (vertically). It was like an elephant sat on the roof of the 4Runner - where's the headroom?! The GX also tucks the spare tire under the car - after driving in snow and cold for a few years, what condition will that tire be in? The Grenadier and ND putting the tire on the back is a safe way to store what could become an essential component. The mandatory glass roof in the US apparently has to do with production capacity. If you load and use a roof, having glass is not a great feature. But apparently JLR doesn't have capacity to offer a functional roof in the US market, so all we currently have is that glass top - take it or leave it. When you see their 130 ad - the maroon ND in the desert dunes - it made me laugh: who wouldn't want to drive around the blazing sun in a greenhouse on wheels?! The roof should be solid and painted white to reflect the sun's rays- this would help to keep the cabin cool. The glass roof would likely transfer heat into the cabin which then streeses the a/c more. Becuase the roof is almost entirely glass, it's not a small issue. But alas, the 130 was built to go to a local mall and Whole Foods... JLR can't seem to get out of their own way: they want to market off road SUVs, but won't seem to fit the SUV properly for the likely conditions it will encounter. You saw the TFL Truck experience with the rocky terrain meeting the factory configured low profile tires. How'd that work? As expected: you shouldn't use low profile tires on rocky terrain. What doesn't make sense to JLR about that?? The mess they are in is entirely their own. Grenadier gets it: you have to make it home to be a good SUV, and the Grenadier, as spartan as it may be compared to ND on the inside, it not likely to stop by the side of the road because you drove over a sharp rock, hit a curb, or banged your front tire into a pothole while driving 30 mph.

 

[klarie]

To be frank, The big boys RR all Flavours, Discovery and New Defender are all rather. luxury types, The big Disco has a huge boot, the Velar is rather sporty . but by interior thy re very alike. not much difference reused components like Volkswagen a kit vehicle and only difference a bit on the outer shape
A bit of soft offroad except the velar .. and the tiny RR both are on road
So they missed a bit at JLR whats the purpose of al this?

 

[GoneNative]

JLR is screwed, especially the J part.

 

[klarie]

Whilst in Ireland I had a few Jags as Hertz rental. Mostly S Type an X Type (2005 )
Both nice and decent. Of couse the Ford-ish ignition key .. and later XF ..
Stylish but already a kit vehicle look ans feel like Disco and RR

 

[JonSutton]

I think (just IMO) JLR is in a stew of their own making. The ND was a huge deal to get right, and if they spend more time trying to make ND better, they would have nothing to worry about from Grenadier, or Toyota LC or their Lexus GX Overtrail that's heading to the US. I think JLR is wasting time manufacturing widgets (Velar, Disco Sport, and Evoke), and at the same time poking fun at the off road crowd by offering ND with 22" rims and a glass roof. JLR is doing everything to make the ND a RR trim, instead of just keeping ND separate and going "all in" with a durable off road ready suv. Because JLR refused to offer18" rims, thick tires, and a solid (functional) roof, the GX Over trail now offers all that standard. Poking fun at the off road crowd has penalties, and JLR egged that GX into existence by pretending not to hear consumer complaints on the ND trims available. The ND is graviting more to the G Wagon crowd: lots of potential, but the drivers will never do anything difficult with the SUV, as the costs to repair a Mercedes - even a rugged G Wagon - are crazy expensive. It's the same thing with the Lexus LX - great bones, but who's going to take a lux mobile camping? The ND interior is the best on the market for adventure driving - space and easy to clean; comfortable but not flashy. If JLR stopped wasting time with the delusion there is no such thing as an adventure driver, they would suddenly realize that 18" rims would be fine (who cares about 0-60 speeds?!), and would put some good tires on the rig, maybe a front and rear bumper you could stand on, and fit ND with an actual roof (something you could stand on while loading). I know, ND is supposed to be bought by folks that want a RR, but for some reason buy the RR trim ND. Ugh. I have an old LR and love it. But I won't buy a ND with a glass roof and I'd prefer 18" rims, and I'll eventually test drive the Grenadier when it's in showrooms. I don't care how fast it goes - it just can't break down. A very critical part of an adventure is returning, and if there is too much tech controlling the SUV, there's a chance some of that goes awry when you're 300 miles from home. Do they really think selling a V8 with no roof rack ability and 22" rims is a better advertisement to the outdoor adventure crowd than something you can drive more slowly over rocks without puncturing a tire and then use the roof for packing? The the V8 is a mall rat envy machine; you're just trying to bait compliments. I think if JLR focused on the core LR off road community with ND, they would do fine vs. Toyota and Grenadier. I sat in a 4Runner once - the good ground clearance with a low SUV height meant the back seat was squished (vertically). It was like an elephant sat on the roof of the 4Runner - where's the headroom?! The GX also tucks the spare tire under the car - after driving in snow and cold for a few years, what condition will that tire be in? The Grenadier and ND putting the tire on the back is a safe way to store what could become an essential component. The mandatory glass roof in the US apparently has to do with production capacity. If you load and use a roof, having glass is not a great feature. But apparently JLR doesn't have capacity to offer a functional roof in the US market, so all we currently have is that glass top - take it or leave it. When you see their 130 ad - the maroon ND in the desert dunes - it made me laugh: who wouldn't want to drive around the blazing sun in a greenhouse on wheels?! The roof should be solid and painted white to reflect the sun's rays- this would help to keep the cabin cool. The glass roof would likely transfer heat into the cabin which then streeses the a/c more. Becuase the roof is almost entirely glass, it's not a small issue. But alas, the 130 was built to go to a local mall and Whole Foods... JLR can't seem to get out of their own way: they want to market off road SUVs, but won't seem to fit the SUV properly for the likely conditions it will encounter. You saw the TFL Truck experience with the rocky terrain meeting the factory configured low profile tires. How'd that work? As expected: you shouldn't use low profile tires on rocky terrain. What doesn't make sense to JLR about that?? The mess they are in is entirely their own. Grenadier gets it: you have to make it home to be a good SUV, and the Grenadier, as spartan as it may be compared to ND on the inside, it not likely to stop by the side of the road because you drove over a sharp rock, hit a curb, or banged your front tire into a pothole while driving 30 mph.

I agree with you. I test drove three ND’s and felt there was little point in buying one. I’m coming out of an L405 for a Grenadier next month and am expecting a proper tow vehicle with off road capability to match or better the L405, which is very good off road, even on sloping wet grass. The Gren will be noisy and slow by comparison but I’ll not worry about panel damage and scratches. The air suspension and silent comfort will be missed as will the miserly fuel consumption.
I find glass roof to be ok in the UK, better with the blind shut in hot weather.

The Gren will last longer, a proper keeper.

 

[AnD3rew]

I think (just IMO) JLR is in a stew of their own making. The ND was a huge deal to get right, and if they spend more time trying to make ND better, they would have nothing to worry about from Grenadier, or Toyota LC or their Lexus GX Overtrail that's heading to the US. I think JLR is wasting time manufacturing widgets (Velar, Disco Sport, and Evoke), and at the same time poking fun at the off road crowd by offering ND with 22" rims and a glass roof. JLR is doing everything to make the ND a RR trim, instead of just keeping ND separate and going "all in" with a durable off road ready suv. Because JLR refused to offer18" rims, thick tires, and a solid (functional) roof, the GX Over trail now offers all that standard. Poking fun at the off road crowd has penalties, and JLR egged that GX into existence by pretending not to hear consumer complaints on the ND trims available. The ND is graviting more to the G Wagon crowd: lots of potential, but the drivers will never do anything difficult with the SUV, as the costs to repair a Mercedes - even a rugged G Wagon - are crazy expensive. It's the same thing with the Lexus LX - great bones, but who's going to take a lux mobile camping? The ND interior is the best on the market for adventure driving - space and easy to clean; comfortable but not flashy. If JLR stopped wasting time with the delusion there is no such thing as an adventure driver, they would suddenly realize that 18" rims would be fine (who cares about 0-60 speeds?!), and would put some good tires on the rig, maybe a front and rear bumper you could stand on, and fit ND with an actual roof (something you could stand on while loading). I know, ND is supposed to be bought by folks that want a RR, but for some reason buy the RR trim ND. Ugh. I have an old LR and love it. But I won't buy a ND with a glass roof and I'd prefer 18" rims, and I'll eventually test drive the Grenadier when it's in showrooms. I don't care how fast it goes - it just can't break down. A very critical part of an adventure is returning, and if there is too much tech controlling the SUV, there's a chance some of that goes awry when you're 300 miles from home. Do they really think selling a V8 with no roof rack ability and 22" rims is a better advertisement to the outdoor adventure crowd than something you can drive more slowly over rocks without puncturing a tire and then use the roof for packing? The the V8 is a mall rat envy machine; you're just trying to bait compliments. I think if JLR focused on the core LR off road community with ND, they would do fine vs. Toyota and Grenadier. I sat in a 4Runner once - the good ground clearance with a low SUV height meant the back seat was squished (vertically). It was like an elephant sat on the roof of the 4Runner - where's the headroom?! The GX also tucks the spare tire under the car - after driving in snow and cold for a few years, what condition will that tire be in? The Grenadier and ND putting the tire on the back is a safe way to store what could become an essential component. The mandatory glass roof in the US apparently has to do with production capacity. If you load and use a roof, having glass is not a great feature. But apparently JLR doesn't have capacity to offer a functional roof in the US market, so all we currently have is that glass top - take it or leave it. When you see their 130 ad - the maroon ND in the desert dunes - it made me laugh: who wouldn't want to drive around the blazing sun in a greenhouse on wheels?! The roof should be solid and painted white to reflect the sun's rays- this would help to keep the cabin cool. The glass roof would likely transfer heat into the cabin which then streeses the a/c more. Becuase the roof is almost entirely glass, it's not a small issue. But alas, the 130 was built to go to a local mall and Whole Foods... JLR can't seem to get out of their own way: they want to market off road SUVs, but won't seem to fit the SUV properly for the likely conditions it will encounter. You saw the TFL Truck experience with the rocky terrain meeting the factory configured low profile tires. How'd that work? As expected: you shouldn't use low profile tires on rocky terrain. What doesn't make sense to JLR about that?? The mess they are in is entirely their own. Grenadier gets it: you have to make it home to be a good SUV, and the Grenadier, as spartan as it may be compared to ND on the inside, it not likely to stop by the side of the road because you drove over a sharp rock, hit a curb, or banged your front tire into a pothole while driving 30 mph.

I think the thing you are missing is that the ND exactly meets the market Land Rover is targeting, evidenced by the fact that it’s their biggest selling model and they are selling more than they can make. They don’t really care about the hard core off road market, despite the fact that people are actually buying and using it that way, including replacing the brakes and adding 18” wheels etc. I don’t think there is anything LR regrets about ND and they don’t see the IG as a significant threat.

 

[AnD3rew]

JLR is screwed, especially the J part.

The biggest thing screwing them is their terrible reliability and customer service reputation, they have never managed to crack that. They make some lovely cars, I do really like the New Defender, I had an F-Type S for 7 years which I just sold and it was a fabulous car. The XFR is a weapon. If they rationalised their range and focused hard on repairing their reputation they could revive it. But as it stands the future doesn’t look that bright.

 

[GoneNative]

The biggest thing screwing them is their terrible reliability and customer service reputation, they have never managed to crack that. They make some lovely cars, I do really like the New Defender, I had an F-Type S for 7 years which I just sold and it was a fabulous car. The XFR is a weapon. If they rationalised their range and focused hard on repairing their reputation they could revive it. But as it stands the future doesn’t look that bright.

Here is my pitch, just make an electric F-Type, but with a real manual transmission and foot pedal clutch. Ignore all things about efficiency and 0-60 sprint, and just make it a driver's GT that no one else has.

But they will just make another boring EV with the same specs (if not worse) than everyone else.

 

[DaBull]

The biggest thing screwing them is their terrible reliability and customer service reputation, they have never managed to crack that. They make some lovely cars, I do really like the New Defender, I had an F-Type S for 7 years which I just sold and it was a fabulous car. The XFR is a weapon. If they rationalised their range and focused hard on repairing their reputation they could revive it. But as it stands the future doesn’t look that bright.

I have had the pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a New Defender. My ownership experiences and customer service have been exceptional. The New Defender is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I will surely miss the incredible smooth performance on road and off road and all the extra storage up front. Like most, I have used it mostly on-road, however I have had it off-road multiple times and have to say, it was incredible off road. I believe it must be the number one 50/50% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I also believe the the Grenadier will be the number one 65/35% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. Perhaps I am biased towards both these vehicles, however I think not. I have owned the New Defender for 3 years now and have also test drove the Grenadier off road. DaBull

 

[AnD3rew]

I have had the pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a New Defender. My ownership experiences and customer service have been exceptional. The New Defender is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I will surely miss the incredible smooth performance on road and off road and all the extra storage up front. Like most, I have used it mostly on-road, however I have had it off-road multiple times and have to say, it was incredible off road. I believe it must be the number one 50/50% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I also believe the the Grenadier will be the number one 65/35% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. Perhaps I am biased towards both these vehicles, however I think not. I have owned the New Defender for 3 years now and have also test drove the Grenadier off road. DaBull

I am also a fan of the vehicles and had 3 Discoveries and was seriously considering a New Defender but the reliability figures are out there and they aren’t good. I have always said Land Rover is luck of the draw, either you get a good one with no issues, or a basket case, if my 3 one was great until it threw a timing belt a few weeks out of warranty, one was an endless litany of minor and a couple if moderate issues, and one was essentially flawless by any reasonable standards. The one new Jaguar I had (I have 3 classic Jags) was overall reliable but the one warranty issue I had left a sour taste in my mouth. My personal experiences with warranty issues has been terrible and plenty of others with horror stories. The one that threw a timing belt justbout if warranty (3 year warranty back then so was just over 3 years old) timing belt let go and hole in the side of the motor and oil and metal all over the road. They initially denied the claim and I had to be a detective and find documentation showing they knew there was an issue with the timing belt pulley that they weren’t telling customers about (service bulletin telling service agents to look for rubber shavings in the oil, and order number for replacement pulley kit) and threaten court before they came to the party. The dealers themselves of course can be good or bad if you have found a good one thats a bonus.

 

[DaveB]

I think the thing you are missing is that the ND exactly meets the market Land Rover is targeting, evidenced by the fact that it’s their biggest selling model and they are selling more than they can make. They don’t really care about the hard core off road market, despite the fact that people are actually buying and using it that way, including replacing the brakes and adding 18” wheels etc. I don’t think there is anything LR regrets about ND and they don’t see the IG as a significant threat.

Yep

 

[Cheshire cat]

I have had the pleasure of owning 3 Range Rover Sports and now own a New Defender. My ownership experiences and customer service have been exceptional. The New Defender is the best vehicle I have ever owned. I will surely miss the incredible smooth performance on road and off road and all the extra storage up front. Like most, I have used it mostly on-road, however I have had it off-road multiple times and have to say, it was incredible off road. I believe it must be the number one 50/50% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. I also believe the the Grenadier will be the number one 65/35% off-road / on-road vehicle in the world. Perhaps I am biased towards both these vehicles, however I think not. I have owned the New Defender for 3 years now and have also test drove the Grenadier off road. DaBull

Hi DaBull
Bearing in mind that you have had very good experiences with your JLR products, what do you feel you will gain from the Grenadier?
For me, it is the perceived ruggedness and reliability of the Grenadier, along with its uniqueness, that attracted me. My Defender Td5 was pretty well faultless through the last 16 years but it is now bordering on vintage and not something I relish doing long journey's in anymore.

 

[DaBull]

Hi DaBull
Bearing in mind that you have had very good experiences with your JLR products, what do you feel you will gain from the Grenadier?
For me, it is the perceived ruggedness and reliability of the Grenadier, along with its uniqueness, that attracted me. My Defender Td5 was pretty well faultless through the last 16 years but it is now bordering on vintage and not something I relish doing long journey's in anymore.

Hi Cheshire cat, I second your thoughts.

One of the main reasons I moved on from the Range Rover Sports to the New Defender was that the 2019 RRS was getting a bit too lux for me and that I loved the older 2007 & 2011 RSS's body style. I also always loved the Old Defender and entertained buying one & upgrading it, however did not want to spend all the time and money to do so.

As such, I purchased the New Defender because of the iconic Old Defender heritage. I always loved the look. It was only 3 months after purchasing the New Defender that I first heard about the New Greanadier and upon first sight of it said, "You had me at Hello".

I am glad I purchased the New Defender and my experience with it has been nothing short of exceptional and I highly recommend it to anyone that asks about it.

If after owning the New Grenadier it does not meet my expectations, (which is unlikely since I have taken a test drive and know about all the potential issues from reading this forum and research I have done), I will regrettably sell it and immediately place a new order for a New Defender.
DaBull

 

[emax]

The the V8 is a mall rat envy machine; you're just trying to bait compliments.

And that's exactly the clientele they address. For them it's not any more about real off road driving.

The Tata CEO has clearly said that they want to move to the luxury segment. What they probably miss is that the G-Wagon holds this place, if only because of the price.

LR is currently still living on the aura of their off-road vehicles, which were really good at the time but are now gone. But at some point this capital will be used up because the nimbus will disappear in the mists of the past and they will then have no new vehicle to further support this reputation.

In this way they squander the reputation capital they have built up in the past and at some point they are left with nothing.

In the past, the Range Rover was a powerful off-road vehicle that could also be used to drive to the opera. A masterpiece of technology and design. If they had consistently continued this line and presented a worthy successor to the Old Defender at the same time, they would probably be in a better position today.

wording​

 

[klarie]

Did some shopping with spouse today. Noticed 2 ND and a G500 perhaps registered last month.. all on large rims, low tyres for on road use. All life style luxury vehicles. I think the ND will indeed establish itself close to G but cheaper. Currently G wagon are difficult to get despite high price. Mercedes GLS is rather a cruiser and close to RR customers.
So I do not think ND and Grenadier compete the same market. BTW there was also one black long classic Defender. very well maintained.. Roof rack and lots of stickers.. Iceland, Scandinavia, That one has seen a bit...