The Grenadier Forum
Register Now for enhanced site access.
INEOS Agents, Dealers or Commercial vendors please contact admin@theineosforum.com for a commercial account.

Idle speculation on the cause of the delay..

DenisM

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
9:15 AM
Joined
Jan 26, 2022
Messages
2,232
Reaction score
4,444
Location
Brisbane, Queensland Australia
@CEMechanic : a most insightful and thoughtful explanation..thank you👍What you describe mirrors similar challenges I witnessed in the aerospace industry in the design, build and delivery of major complex equipment projects... No matter how carefully one checks the final result, there's always "one more thing" to be sorted. As you rightly say.. "not for the faint hearted"!

EDIT: It's why methodologies such as SixSigma and Enterprise Architecture are so valuable...
 
Last edited:

trobex

Grenadier Owner
Local time
11:15 PM
Joined
Dec 23, 2022
Messages
1,902
Reaction score
2,444
Location
Australia
I would put $100 down that they found quality issues in the first run of cars through the manufacturing line + they have a software issue. After the initial press release there were several commentators faulting a few things... both electrical and body wise.
But I am happy to take my car now... IA... are you listening!!!
 

globalgregors

Photo Contest Winner
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
10:15 AM
Joined
May 15, 2022
Messages
1,530
Reaction score
3,988
Location
Sydney NSW, Australia
@CEMechanic : a most insightful and thoughtful explanation..thank you👍What you describe mirrors similar challenges I witnessed in the aerospace industry in the design, build and delivery of major complex equipment projects... No matter how carefully one checks the final result, there's always "one more thing" to be sorted. As you rightly say.. "not for the faint hearted"!

EDIT: It's why methodologies such as SixSigma and Enterprise Architecture are so valuable...
I came here as a diversion from work, if you please.
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Forum Moderator
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,765
Reaction score
9,218
Location
Germany
There might be some points were the above said plays a roll here and there. But they shouldn't lead to batches of cars which can't be delivered. All companies face such situations - but they finally deliver - except for availability issues, to which I agree.

The staff in Hambach is not new to production starts and ramp ups. There are basically the same teams which were there before. There are differences, of course. But differences have always been there upon the start of a new model. So they are basically trained people.

And "getting used" and eliminating production problems was the task of the PTO1, PTO2 and PTO3 series.
 

grenadierboy

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
10:15 AM
Joined
Apr 6, 2022
Messages
1,814
Reaction score
3,308
Location
Armadale Australia
There might be some points were the above said plays a roll here and there. But they shouldn't lead to batches of cars which can't be delivered. All companies face such situations - but they finally deliver - except for availability issues, to which I agree.

The staff in Hambach is not new to production starts and ramp ups. There are basically the same teams which were there before. There are differences, of course. But differences have always been there upon the start of a new model. So they are basically trained people.

And "getting used" and eliminating production problems was the task of the PTO1, PTO2 and PTO3 series.
Correct emax - I read somewhere that the vast bulk of the IA workforce have been building the MB Smart cars & of course in same with same robots etc. etc.
 

To

Grenadier Owner
Local time
6:15 PM
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
145
Reaction score
541
There might be some points were the above said plays a roll here and there. But they shouldn't lead to batches of cars which can't be delivered. All companies face such situations - but they finally deliver - except for availability issues, to which I agree.

The staff in Hambach is not new to production starts and ramp ups. There are basically the same teams which were there before. There are differences, of course. But differences have always been there upon the start of a new model. So they are basically trained people.

And "getting used" and eliminating production problems was the task of the PTO1, PTO2 and PTO3 series.
Maybe, but they didn't make 1000 or 2000 of these to be able to track down this very small error rate. Therefore, I can not agree. Ineos should quietly subject my car to intensive quality control, then I have saved me later running. Besides, the first deliveries must be top quality, otherwise the image as a good car manufacturer is ruined immediately. They know what they are doing.
 

grenadierboy

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
10:15 AM
Joined
Apr 6, 2022
Messages
1,814
Reaction score
3,308
Location
Armadale Australia
Maybe, but they didn't make 1000 or 2000 of these to be able to track down this very small error rate. Therefore, I can not agree. Ineos should quietly subject my car to intensive quality control, then I have saved me later running. Besides, the first deliveries must be top quality, otherwise the image as a good car manufacturer is ruined immediately. They know what they are doing.
Of course all IA car deliveries must be top quality but, I accept that the first few thousand cars , especially those pre-ordered, must be extra "tip top" quality, (but of course not perfect) because of the worlds automotive eyes are on a "new entrant/competitor".

Enemies will be looking for any "cracks" to exploit and make bad publicity across the internet.
 

MrMike

Lifetime Supporter
Local time
7:15 AM
Joined
Nov 25, 2022
Messages
1,691
Reaction score
2,540
Location
Australia
I would put $100 down that they found quality issues in the first run of cars through the manufacturing line + they have a software issue. After the initial press release there were several commentators faulting a few things... both electrical and body wise.
But I am happy to take my car now... IA... are you listening!!!
They have one delivered in the UK, owner said its a 2 week wait for update :rolleyes:
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Forum Moderator
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,765
Reaction score
9,218
Location
Germany
Local time
11:15 PM
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Messages
100
Reaction score
390
Location
Scotland
While it would be nice if there would be just one or two issues holding up deliveries - most likely it will be an over simplification of the mountain of challenges Team Ineos will have to fix for us right now.

1.) To begin with it is highly likely that we are still in a rectification phase of all technical issues that were found during the development of the Grenadier.

Typically the goal is to have all of them fixed before production starts. Issues get ranked by safety, technical, reliability criteria and the likelihood of these failures impacting all cars are assessed as well as the severity.
With this, a technical issue leading to a potential safety issue needs to be addressed, as well as a technical issue leading to a failure of a major component that will put the car out of operation. Likewise an issue that has little technical risk but that is impacting the entire production and that will be seen as a failure by customers will need to be addressed.
A low risk, low magnitude issue might be put to the bottom of the list and might not get addressed before production launch, or it only has an interim solution until a permanent fix is being developed and put in production.
The problem is - with a new design like the Grenadier - it can be expected that new issues that were not found during the development phase, will be identified - in production and in the field with the customers.
The higher Ineos sets the internal bar for quality, the higher the chance that vehicles that have been produced already will have to be reworked before being released to the customer. We heard the expression ‚batch and hold‘ in this context.

2.) we need to expand our view on what we think is happening at the Hambach facility to the entire supply base. The suppliers need to ramp up at the same Takt that Hambach wants to produce cars.
They need to refine the tooling, need to train new staff they are hiring, need to fix technical issues that are falling under their responsibility. We are dealing with a brand new frame from Gestamp, new axles from Carraro that are purpose built for the Grenadier.

4.) With all the newness of the Grenadier there is still the issue of the global supply chain constraints that are hitting pretty much every manufacturing domain. These days It is often the case that suppliers that have committed to your supply chain employees and in the MRP system to only let you down the following day. With todays just in time processes this makes you loose a production day. In a car factory you might have up to three shifts worth of lineside material to give you a buffer, but the following day your production is haulted.

4.) People! With a brand new organisation, a brand new design to be created, so many new parts to be built, a new assembly line to be ramped up, new suppliers - there is so much new hiring going on that it is really hard to understand how chaotic the world in manufacturing can be.
Everybody in the organisation will have a very steep learning curve to climb, they will do their very best for sure, but they will make mistakes that lead to new problems. Due to lack of experience it will also take much longer for issues to be resolved.

Ramping up production is not for the faint hearted. It is extremely challenging for everybody involved. From the outside we may wonder why we won’t get an update or firm commitments on dates. Until technical processes are debugged, teams are stabilised, it is really difficult to make a statement, simply because you don’t know what hits you next.
Every day the team will get closer to a ‘boring’ factory, this is a good thing! Because what is boring is also predictable, what is predictable must be reliable.

I understand this is a bit of a handful to read, but sometimes it seems we have a tendency to oversimplify the task of putting a new car in production with a new team.
This maybe accurate, but doesn't avoid the point that informed and responsible people at IA promised deadline after deadline and missed them all, even when they should have the industry experience and visibility of production ramp up and supply chain pressures.

My current concern is if you need a spare part (once you are luck enough to receive a vehicle) is the infrastructure and support in place or will my vehicle potentially be off the road for weeks?
 
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Jul 1, 2022
Messages
12
Reaction score
107
Location
Regensburg
This maybe accurate, but doesn't avoid the point that informed and responsible people at IA promised deadline after deadline and missed them all, even when they should have the industry experience and visibility of production ramp up and supply chain pressures.

My current concern is if you need a spare part (once you are luck enough to receive a vehicle) is the infrastructure and support in place or will my vehicle potentially be off the road for weeks?
Agreed - aftermarket readiness is another vital point to launch a product/vehicle.

Typically a number of critical spare parts need to be in stock before the first customer deliveries are made. This can be another reason to delay first deliveries as well.

To assume that Ineos launches a new vehicle and they would serve the aftermarket from pinched parts from the production line would be naive and a recipe for desaster from a customer experience point of view. They will be smarter than that. But it is one more challenge the team has to overcome that established brands don’t have to deal with to this extent, simply as the aftermarket infrastructure (warehouses, parts distribution centres, order systems for dealers) exists.

Wouldn’t it be great if Ineos would stand to their promise and make parts available for customers through an online ordering platform from the very beginning. That should take care of that worry right away.
 

emax

Photo Contest Winner
Forum Moderator
Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local Group Moderator
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
5,765
Reaction score
9,218
Location
Germany
Meant are their remarks. What else!
I think so, but I'm curious what in particular is wrong in your opinion?

EDIT: more precise question
 

Beormund

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Local time
11:15 PM
Joined
Aug 4, 2022
Messages
320
Reaction score
943
Location
Kent, UK
While it would be nice if there would be just one or two issues holding up deliveries - most likely it will be an over simplification of the mountain of challenges Team Ineos will have to fix for us right now.

1.) To begin with it is highly likely that we are still in a rectification phase of all technical issues that were found during the development of the Grenadier.

Typically the goal is to have all of them fixed before production starts. Issues get ranked by safety, technical, reliability criteria and the likelihood of these failures impacting all cars are assessed as well as the severity.
With this, a technical issue leading to a potential safety issue needs to be addressed, as well as a technical issue leading to a failure of a major component that will put the car out of operation. Likewise an issue that has little technical risk but that is impacting the entire production and that will be seen as a failure by customers will need to be addressed.
A low risk, low magnitude issue might be put to the bottom of the list and might not get addressed before production launch, or it only has an interim solution until a permanent fix is being developed and put in production.
The problem is - with a new design like the Grenadier - it can be expected that new issues that were not found during the development phase, will be identified - in production and in the field with the customers.
The higher Ineos sets the internal bar for quality, the higher the chance that vehicles that have been produced already will have to be reworked before being released to the customer. We heard the expression ‚batch and hold‘ in this context.

2.) we need to expand our view on what we think is happening at the Hambach facility to the entire supply base. The suppliers need to ramp up at the same Takt that Hambach wants to produce cars.
They need to refine the tooling, need to train new staff they are hiring, need to fix technical issues that are falling under their responsibility. We are dealing with a brand new frame from Gestamp, new axles from Carraro that are purpose built for the Grenadier.

4.) With all the newness of the Grenadier there is still the issue of the global supply chain constraints that are hitting pretty much every manufacturing domain. These days It is often the case that suppliers that have committed to your supply chain employees and in the MRP system to only let you down the following day. With todays just in time processes this makes you loose a production day. In a car factory you might have up to three shifts worth of lineside material to give you a buffer, but the following day your production is haulted.

4.) People! With a brand new organisation, a brand new design to be created, so many new parts to be built, a new assembly line to be ramped up, new suppliers - there is so much new hiring going on that it is really hard to understand how chaotic the world in manufacturing can be.
Everybody in the organisation will have a very steep learning curve to climb, they will do their very best for sure, but they will make mistakes that lead to new problems. Due to lack of experience it will also take much longer for issues to be resolved.

Ramping up production is not for the faint hearted. It is extremely challenging for everybody involved. From the outside we may wonder why we won’t get an update or firm commitments on dates. Until technical processes are debugged, teams are stabilised, it is really difficult to make a statement, simply because you don’t know what hits you next.
Every day the team will get closer to a ‘boring’ factory, this is a good thing! Because what is boring is also predictable, what is predictable must be reliable.

I understand this is a bit of a handful to read, but sometimes it seems we have a tendency to oversimplify the task of putting a new car in production with a new team.
Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts (and it would appear, experience) to paper. I found this very informative.
 

TD5-90

Grenadier Owner
Lifetime Supporter
Founding Guard
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Aug 22, 2021
Messages
454
Reaction score
924
Location
South Germany
...
Rumour has it that as an engineer at Toyota you will need CEO approval to make a running production design change. This puts the organisation under so much pressure to work defect free, that by culture and by process there will be only very few problems that have to be dealt with.
...
With this recipe you eventually prevent any production to be started at all.
Or, if production has started, you simply prevent necessary design changes to happen.

So this Toyota tale seems in fact rumors to me...
 
Local time
12:15 AM
Joined
Jul 1, 2022
Messages
12
Reaction score
107
Location
Regensburg
This was my lesson on the Toyota Production System when we absorbed it into our organisation.
It is about creating a defect free culture that does not let anything leak past quality gates that are installed in your organisation - not just on the assembly line.

If the process works well, then you don’t need the CEOs signature. And there will be a lot of sign offs before production is launched to make sure the product and processes are defect free.

Quality work is boring - but it creates an exciting product…
 

To

Grenadier Owner
Local time
6:15 PM
Joined
Jul 12, 2022
Messages
145
Reaction score
541
I think so, but I'm curious what in particular is wrong in your opinion?

EDIT: more precise question
this one: "And "getting used" and eliminating production problems was the task of the PTO1, PTO2 and PTO3 series". Yes, but these pre-production vehicles were not suitable enough to show rarely or very rarely occurring problems. From this point of view, the first Customer vehicles may still be considered pre-series products.
 
Back
Top Bottom