Freedom of speech, yes, but...

[klarie]

I agree @alvan, but @Jean Mercier point is Ineos promised them at the start of the project, Porsche didn't

In my humble opinion, - I think this openness of tech information will come. - Perhaps not for free - (since they promised to disclose the information - but Ineos did not promise free of charge. - The same in their promise wold wide service. I think if you or Jean tells Ineos - "I am planning a tour from Ghent to Cape Town, can you support me in case of.. " there will be a solution but unlikely for free. At the moment - and again - they must build up their infrastructure and lines. And they had probably assumptions that not turned out to become real - perhaps by Corona or other economical / political impact.
Yes a mistake and sometimes a bit too optimistic.. I do not defend Ineos here, - the electronic gremlins e.g. are quite significant there. But perhaps I am due to my own experience in IT my expectations were quite low. - I was already wondering that they really were able to get the vehicle out to customers in a reasonable time. In IT most projects get significantly delayed (sometimes by 200 % estimated time - and way over budget.) A vehicle to develop by an established automaker needs 7-9 years.. and Ineos made it on time despite Corona. Okay some flaws but nothing really a showstopper.

 

[Tazzieman]

I agree @alvan, but @Jean Mercier point is Ineos promised them at the start of the project, Porsche didn't

Politics is a business. Politicians promise stuff, to get elected.
Ineos Automotive, also a business, is no different. Some things promised get delivered , some don't. Perhaps because of restraints that come to light with the passage of time or changes in legislation. Lawyers and accountants may have spoiled the freebie party!

 

[alvan]

I agree @alvan, but @Jean Mercier point is Ineos promised them at the start of the project, Porsche didn't

You are right, and this coincides with what I said about the initial expectations and the subsequent clash with reality... BTW, Porsche has been in business since 1947, let's give some time to those who enter today. Robert Pirsig wrote about the difficulty of writing a good shop manual. Perhaps even a minimum of accumulated experience would be needed before deliberating it, especially if it is to be put in the hands of DIYselfers...

 

[Toady]

If you believe all Land Rover owners are supportive of his endeavor then you are surely mistaken. Some will hope he fails as some hope the other person fails in most, if not all, sporting events. Business is just as competitive as sports, if not more so.

I never said I believed "all Land Rover owners are supportive", I said "The thought that Land Rover owners have a endemic dislike for the Grenadier is easily dispelled"; like any group, to assume there is complete unified group think, is unlikely to be true. Furthermore, I do not disagree with your sentiment that there is always a segment who get pleasure from watching others fail. These are also generally people who take little responsibility for what happens in their own lives and tend to blame their lack of success, however they define it, on others.

Toady
Earlier I suggested the Grenadier might not be for you. Now I’m not so sure. Lots of what you say does make sense and it will be interesting to see how you go.

If you read my post above the one you quoted, I'm more than likely the ideal buyer - expectations set where they should be (ownership akin to classic Defender and older cars, not the modern vehicles I own / have owned) - my point was simply that I do think education of buyers at dealership level, and comms at Ineos level, should be improved upon to alleviate both expectation vs reality and thus post purchase dissonance.

Go into buying one educated (aka eyes wide open, no rose tinted glasses, thinking the car will turn you into Bear Grills (or more even better Ray Mears)) and with expectations set to a realistic level based on development life cycle of the product, newness of the manufacturing company and dealers themselves, and I'd suggest overall owner satisfaction would improve.

 

[Tazzieman]

Go into buying one educated (aka eyes wide open, no rose tinted glasses, thinking the car will turn you into Bear Grills (or more even better Ray Mears))

I have assumed I will become the next Ranulph Fiennes, if nobody else has selected that option.
If so , I'll opt for Colonel John Blashford-Snell.

 

[LC0013]

my point was simply that I do think education of buyers at dealership level, and comms at Ineos level, should be improved upon to alleviate both expectation vs reality and thus post purchase dissonance.

and a good point it is.

 

[AZGrenadier]

I think so many people here have unrealistic expectations. Who has ever had a house built on time and on budget, how often are you stuck waiting well past your appointment time at the doctors office, whose steak is always cooked perfectly. I think what Ineos has done is absolutely incredible, they didn’t just have an idea of building a car company like so many have done before. They didn’t just build 20 exotic cars and say, “if you want service bring it back to the factory”. In 5 years time they designed, prototyped, marketed, built a factory (purchased and refitted) and began delivering vehicles. This was during one of the most difficult times in modern history. When was the last time we had a car company do that? When was the last time we had an entirely new car company delivering world wide? I would say this is a monumental success.

For anyone to think that this car wasn’t going to have some issues they must live with their heads in the clouds, of course there are going to be issues. There is going to be trim pieces that don’t fit, there are going to be door seal issues, there are going to be communication complaints. If I wanted to make sure I was going to get a perfect vehicle I would have bought another Lexus, but they don’t make what I want so I stop crying and I buy what I do want knowing it isn’t going to be of Lexus quality.

I really like my Jaguar E Pace. Great little SUV but it is glitchy. Way more fun than a RAV4 so I accept those glitches.

Now with that being said, I will be pissed if my AC doesn’t work.

 

[255/85]

Politics is a business. Politicians promise stuff, to get elected.
Ineos Automotive, also a business, is no different. Some things promised get delivered , some don't. Perhaps because of restraints that come to light with the passage of time or changes in legislation. Lawyers and accountants may have spoiled the freebie party!

I don't disagree here but maybe there was also a good bit of enthusiasm and exuberance on Ineos' part that overshadowed their normally keen business sense. And then the lawyers got involved.

Either way they did stick it out this far.

 

[Krabby]

. And then the lawyers got involved.

THIS 100%!!!

 

[2wheelfish]

Well, here goes… Lots of passion in this thread.

I own a Land Rover, not a Defender, but one of the first Discovery 3’s off the line in late 2004, so I’m not adverse to risk. Yes, it had some teething problems, but ultimately the best car I’ve ever owned and relatively trouble free, just needs routine maintenance.

I like the Grenadier because I’ve always wanted a real Defender and you just can’t really get one in the States. I’ve followed it along and I’m not skeptical of the car, but I am a bit cautious of Ineos.

I like hearing the feedback on issues and especially how Ineos is responding (or not). I try to weed out those overly pessimistic or optimistic as I think there needs to be a validation of their position relative to my own situation. Social media does add an “extrapolated” position, but it also provides unfiltered feedback that’s truly valuable, we just have to apply our own filter to properly interpret the information.

 

[DDG]

A bunch of great observations and insights in this discussion. Exactly what I’ve learned to expect on this forum. I avoid as much social media as I can for the many reasons stated earlier. The last thing any of us need is more fake reason to disagree. In my experience, the best ideas usually rise to the top (given enough time). I also enjoy forming my own opinion and putting my own skin in the game. Not sure what my overall batting average is, but I’d hope it’s over .500

 

[trobex]

When they at 15,000 vehicles delivered and on the road with 12 months of use, then we will see if they have is the vehicle as promised. They failed on the no frills part, I feel there is to much going on with the electrics. I was hoping for the dash board of my 2005 Triton but with the manual levers and locks. We got the diff locks.

 

[evomind]

Im not so sure what the unrealistic expectations are.
The only expectations I have are the ones Ineos themself have put forth.
First it was a certain price point, which was then blown out of the water.
then it was simple electronics to facilitate ease of use and reliability.
Well that "expectation" has left something to be desired.
Another expectation was a robust dealer network that would be revealed after ordering.
Hardly robust.
Many other advertised/promised expectations that by some measure have fallen short.
If we dont complain I am afraid we will have JLR all over again.

 

[klarie]

@trobex and @evomind you are both correct, if Ineos is taken indeed by word .. or what they initially intended.
perhaps I am a bit different here. I know that there is always a difference between expectations and reality. The no frills intent ends where the regulations kick in. an old school vehicle w/o electronics will not be certified to be registered. Looking at the issues beyond the software stuff was
Door gasket, certain brakelines to be replaced, some transfer case that needed to be replaced. Aircondition Leak,
this to me seem normal ramp up issues ..
The other stuff like support, spare parts, documentation.. that’s is something we need take Ineos indeed a bit more serious. This has nothing to do with regulatory restrictions to make a vehicle as simple as possible but the support in repair and operational topics. But I will grant Ineos more grace time on that. As of now there are only a few vehicles active .. as the number will grow and increasing experience the infrastructure will grow. However if they fail on that.. then Ineos will have a problem.

 

[evomind]

@trobex and @evomind you are both correct, if Ineos is taken indeed by word .. or what they initially intended.
perhaps I am a bit different here. I know that there is always a difference between expectations and reality. The no frills intent ends where the regulations kick in. an old school vehicle w/o electronics will not be certified to be registered. Looking at the issues beyond the software stuff was
Door gasket, certain brakelines to be replaced, some transfer case that needed to be replaced. Aircondition Leak,
this to me seem normal ramp up issues ..
The other stuff like support, spare parts, documentation.. that’s is something we need take Ineos indeed a bit more serious. This has nothing to do with regulatory restrictions to make a vehicle as simple as possible but the support in repair and operational topics. But I will grant Ineos more grace time on that. As of now there are only a few vehicles active .. as the number will grow and increasing experience the infrastructure will grow. However if they fail on that.. then Ineos will have a problem.

I am not so worried about door trims and such.
I am concerned that Ineos perhaps falls into the trap of just hearing what "die hards" say about everything being perfect and how great everything is, because if they buy into that they are less likely to improve quality control, thats why I think complaints should be heard and brought to Ineos' attention.
That's how they are made aware there is a problem.
I dont want to see JLR all over again where they produce beautiful but relatively unreliable vehicles but have no desire to improve QC issues because their market is so willing to overlook them.
Lastly, I am a businessman like many of you.
I am expected to not only meet but to exceed "expectations."
I am sure you well to do folks are as well.
Why is it some of you are so quick to excuse anyone else from the standards that most of you make a career living by?
So when plunking down close to 90k dollars I am not sure what is "unreasonable" to demand that a product is delivered as advertised and in good working order.

 

[klarie]

I am not so worried about door trims and such.
I am concerned that Ineos perhaps falls into the trap of just hearing what "die hards" say about everything being perfect and how great everything is, because if they buy into that they are less likely to improve quality control, thats why I think complaints should be heard and brought to Ineos' attention.
That's how they are made aware there is a problem.
I dont want to see JLR all over again where they produce beautiful but relatively unreliable vehicles but have no desire to improve QC issues because their market is so willing to overlook them.
Lastly, I am a businessman like many of you.
I am expected to not only meet but to exceed "expectations."
I am sure you well to do folks are as well.
Why is it some of you are so quick to excuse anyone else from the standards that most of you make a career living by?
So when plunking down close to 90k dollars I am not sure what is "unreasonable" to demand that a product is delivered as advertised and in good working order.

I see your concerns. I am in IT, - from developer to consultant, trainer, tech advisor - enterprise architect.
Exceed expectations? You are a rare species. There is another problem, .. - You heard perhaps of Lopez Affair, - a guy worked first for Opel / General Motors later moved to Volkswagen and took some internal company secrets with him.
But Lopez was a guy who renegotiated and squeezed component manufacturers like a lemon. - At the end as these companies have to make money too - they used cheapest quality .. - so exactly the opposite of exceed expectations.
The result of a Lopez engagement backfired to the VW in particular and of course initiated mistrust in all manufacturers. Long ago when I did a sightseeing roundtrip in the US - in 1995, I rented a Ford Windstar from Hertz in LA, what a poor quality. Lots of features but doors rattling , noise, - carpet.. a rather kludgy / ramshagged vehicle but just 351 mls on the odo .. what ist this? - Exceeds expectations most certainly not.
I was a long term Mercedes Benz Owner - not even Mercedes exceeded expectations. If a car ever met my expectations then it was a Mitsubishi Galant 2.3 Turbodiesel 84 HP, I had, bought it used with 120.000 kms on the odo, cheap, lot of features, no issues, reliable, did the job sold it to another student at 300.000 km, - he had it to 500.000km before the body fell apart. But everything else but an eyecatcher. Thats it.
By no means I do excuse anything to Ineos. I just had realistic expectations, and so far, the initial product planning as told by a former employee from K&E - who expected by Ordernumber Build Month March - was wrong. But Ineos never told me so. - What is there now - is correct. I grant a learning curve not more. My contract matched my order - not more I expected. The rest I will see when I get the invoice and my agent tells me "Your vehicle has arrived".
And - reading other members of the forum, I received my vehicle - no issues - no error messages. So there are vehicles that work. And if not - I expect Ineos to sort that out. Being speculative won't help here. - Issues will be dealt with if they occur and Ineos will be informed of.. for sure. But that is just facts -Why defend Ineos? Simply because there are on the opposite jealous JLR fans and others who try to down Sir Jims projects. Back to facts.
I have some serious expectations on the project. Jim did it, and I am glad he had the balls to do it despite the strong headwind by regulators, economic issues, corona, environmentalists and others who oppose such vehicles.
This is why I support it. Still there is a risk, I am willing to accept it. But everything else is pure speculative in the future. What about Ineos future. - Sorry company brands appear and disappear. - That is the market. - Saab disappeared. Rover disappeared. Other brands appear. At the end most components of Grenadier are from well known suppliers - limiting the risk of not getting spares. To me Ineos found their niche .. the rest is wait & see - if you cannot bear the risk.. just do not order one. No one is forcing you here.

 

[Earthwatcher]

I'm afraid I explained myself badly... Even if completely foreign to my character and my culture, I accept as a traditional practice of automotive passion, the denigration of different brands and cars, or rivals, of your own. As a (classic) Porsche owner I have participated in many forums dedicated to sports cars and I have witnessed, with a bit of irony, the insults that were exchanged. Childish, but normal. It happens in football, as in any other human activity to which you are passionately dedicated, especially if only as a spectator... I wasn't referring to this (incidentally, I don't believe to be correct talking about Land Rover owners in a generic sense, or of Porsche owners; up until a few weeks ago I was a Land Rover owner but I am afraid, in general, to share little of the motivations of a new Land Rover owner, or as a (classic) Porsche owner of the motivations of a 991 or 992 owner, without that this represents a reason for contempt, but only the observation that the world is changing and that behind a common name very different things can be represented). I was referring to those who, having bought a Grenadier, not having appreciated it for some reason, and trying to sell or return it, do everything to devalue it. And this does not seem to me to be a rational behavior, nor fair to those who are satisfied with it. That's all... And today's marketing strategies related to the Internet can also lead to strange thoughts...

Well if it's any consolation to its owners, all the rubbishing of the new Defender has done nothing to dampen demand. I doubt that negative comments about the Grenadier (among owners or beyond) will hamper sales too much either. The car has a real presence and people are beginning to realise it's something different to the old Defender. Some cars have a practicality that negates criticisms. Look at the Jimney. I had one, hated its lack of sophistication, gave it to my son who also hated it...until he didn't. He didn't need four-wheel drive in outer London but he appreciated a narrow car he could squeeze in to a tight space. Meanwhile farmers recognised that here was a cheap go-anywhere runabout and Jimney prices soared. After two years my son sold his for a tidy profit. As long as Ineos don't make too many of them, the market for the Grenadier should be reasonably robust.

 

[Earthwatcher]

I am not so worried about door trims and such.
I am concerned that Ineos perhaps falls into the trap of just hearing what "die hards" say about everything being perfect and how great everything is, because if they buy into that they are less likely to improve quality control, thats why I think complaints should be heard and brought to Ineos' attention.
That's how they are made aware there is a problem.
I dont want to see JLR all over again where they produce beautiful but relatively unreliable vehicles but have no desire to improve QC issues because their market is so willing to overlook them.
Lastly, I am a businessman like many of you.
I am expected to not only meet but to exceed "expectations."
I am sure you well to do folks are as well.
Why is it some of you are so quick to excuse anyone else from the standards that most of you make a career living by?
So when plunking down close to 90k dollars I am not sure what is "unreasonable" to demand that a product is delivered as advertised and in good working order.

One thing I know about Jim Radcliffe is that he is an absolute stickler for quality and precision so he will be jumping up and down about any teething issues with the Grenadier. His superyacht is a Feadship, the Rolls Royce of superyachts. I'm surprised he has allowed bits of the interior trim to look somewhat unfinished. His top team have all been supplied with Grenadiers and these are people who will have the fanciest of cars in their garages. It'll be interesting to see how the company responds to complaints in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised if it reverted yo the dealership model for sales and service.

 

[trobex]

One thing I know about Jim Radcliffe is that he is an absolute stickler for quality and precision so he will be jumping up and down about any teething issues with the Grenadier. His superyacht is a Feadship, the Rolls Royce of superyachts. I'm surprised he has allowed bits of the interior trim to look somewhat unfinished. His top team have all been supplied with Grenadiers and these are people who will have the fanciest of cars in their garages. It'll be interesting to see how the company responds to complaints in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised if it reverted yo the dealership model for sales and service.

They promised a lot recently, in particular that quality had exceeded expectations. There are many teething issues that us new owners need to be aware of, but none yet that would force me to pull the order. I can give a unique vehicle a bit of the old 'rose tint' treatment for the small things. I drive 700-800km a week, so I need a reliably excellent vehicle... and a safe place to put my Sat-nav which I can only do upon delivery!