Dual batteries

[Wake]

Just wondering if anyone has worked out whether the dual battery system is fine or whether it is necessary to get one of the batteries isolated. I believe that both batteries are able to drain “overnight” when electrical appliances are being used. My limited experience with Australian setups is that the secondary battery is the only one that can drain “overnight”. So is it necessary to make some alterations or is the ineos system able to protect us to ensure that we always have power to start the engine. Thanks

 

[Jean Mercier]

There are quite some discussions on the forum concerning this topic.
For instance here:

You now can’t use the Smartpass consumer output

Today at 5:46 AM Took my car to the agent today to replace a door seal. They disconnected my fridge connection from the “Consumer Output” and placed a DO NOT USE sticker. What’s going on??! The red sticker says “WARNING: Consumer output not adapted for this vehicles systems DO NOT USE” the...

www.theineosforum.com

But there are others, you can use the search function (top right of your screen).

 

[Miltz]

Just wondering if anyone has worked out whether the dual battery system is fine or whether it is necessary to get one of the batteries isolated. I believe that both batteries are able to drain “overnight” when electrical appliances are being used. My limited experience with Australian setups is that the secondary battery is the only one that can drain “overnight”. So is it necessary to make some alterations or is the ineos system able to protect us to ensure that we always have power to start the engine. Thanks

G'day, I've got more or less the same question!

I've had a chat with my local rep and while the information from CTEK is pretty vague regarding its "battery guard" and "start assistance", their understanding is that all power draw comes from the primary (I believe this is the "service" battery in CTEK speak?) battery with the secondary ("consumer"?) providing extra amps when high loads are required, e.g. winching or running a high power driving lights etc. The primary battery also powers all accessory points when the vehicle is turned off.

As for the "battery guard", they believe that if you're running accessories when the vehicle is turned off, the CTEK unit will start trickle charging the primary battery when it drops below a certain voltage to keep the accessories running, though they don't believe there is any cut off feature for when the secondary battery drops below a voltage limit.

The "start assistance" allows the secondary battery to provide extra amps should the primary battery battery be low for some reason, basically pairs them in the same way it does for high load use to get the extra amps required. Not sure how this will work should the CTEK allow the secondary battery to drain while trickle charging the primary battery to keep accessories running though, you'd just have 2 flat batteries...

I'd love it if someone could correct this information and tell me that the CTEK will isolate the secondary battery at a certain voltage to allow the vehicle to start should the primary battery fail or accessories drain more power than expected! And if not, would it be possible to fit an isolator between the CTEK and secondary battery to keep the secondary battery above what is required to start the vehicle, or would this simply end up isolating it from the ability to start the vehicle while keeping it charged..?


Cheers,

Miltz

 

[TheDocAUS]

The CTEK 120S an be mated to the CTEK 250SE for more functionality. Read this thread here.

Other useful threads:

1. Fuse information here.
2. Deutsch DTP plugs here.
3. Torque settings here.

 

[TheDocAUS]

I'd love it if someone could correct this information and tell me that the CTEK will isolate the secondary battery at a certain voltage to allow the vehicle to start should the primary battery fail or accessories drain more power than expected! And if not, would it be possible to fit an isolator between the CTEK and secondary battery to keep the secondary battery above what is required to start the vehicle, or would this simply end up isolating it from the ability to start the vehicle while keeping it charged..?


Cheers,

Miltz

The question is answered in the CTEK Manual. Look in the thread I posted above.

 

[Miltz]

The CTEK 120S an be mated to the CTEK 250SE for more functionality. Read this thread here.

Other useful threads:

1. Fuse information here.
2. Deutsch DTP plugs here.
3. Torque settings here.

Thanks for the info TheDocAUS!

I have previously found your thread regarding the 250SE and have decided it's not for me, nor is the 120S for that matter but it is what came with the vehicle so making the most of it while it's there while spending as little as I can to make it suitable for the short term. In the short term I will be fitting solar via a regulator hooked up to the 120S (or primary battery, whatever works best) but will ultimately be replacing the CTEK system in mid term.

The other 3 threads you posted I'm yet to tumble across but also have a lot of handy info, thanks for your input into the forum!

 

[Wake]

Thanks for the help Miltz

 

[Miltz]

The question is answered in the CTEK Manual. Look in the thread I posted above.

Hi, Happy New Year and sorry for the slow reply, I was heading off for holidays when I jumped offline last FRI evening and have only just got back.

I've had another read through all of your information, the CTEK manual and whatever else I can find. The short understanding I have is that the dual battery system can drain below the starting threshold of the vehicle, the primary (starter) battery can be ran flat and the secondary (service) battery* doesn't isolate until it drops to 11.5V which is unlikely going to be enough to boost a dead primary battery to a level that will start the vehicle.

One thing I haven't been able to establish is the "consumers", if there are any and if so what are connected to the 120S and what are connected to the secondary battery. As far as I can tell by following wires around under the seats the Grenadier isn't making any use of consumers via the 120S** or secondary battery, all power draw (including 12V/USB plugs and EXT output points) is from the primary battery.

* Appears in some earlier posts I have used incorrect terminology for the primary and secondary battery in CTEK speak, bit of confusion at my end with everything I've read online with inconsistent terminology...

** And it appears that even if you decide to make use of the consumer output on the 120S, Ineos will remove this from your vehicle (and more recently delivered vehicles don't give you the option of using the consumer output at all) https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/you-now-can’t-use-the-smartpass-consumer-output.12413348/

 

[bakepl]

The short understanding I have is that the dual battery system can drain below the starting threshold of the vehicle, the primary (starter) battery can be ran flat and the secondary (service) battery* doesn't isolate until it drops to 11.5V which is unlikely going to be enough to boost a dead primary battery to a level that will start the vehicle.

Seems this is correct and perhaps why some have been left stranded with 2 flat batteries. I recently inadvertently left my overhead main power switch on. Among other things (I suspect) this turned on to standby mode a victron smart battery protect I have on the aux battery - a draw of around 1.4mA. No other consumables such as fridge etc. Both batteries were flat after 5 or 6 days. Perhaps I'll look at removing the smartpass and just use the D250SE to isolate the two batteries or replace the lot with a redarc dc to dc, again to isolate the 2 batteries with the redarc having a higher charging capacity. I can then look at using the Aux battery in it's true sense and run all consumables via the smart battery protect including the overhead light switches.

 

[Miltz]

Seems this is correct and perhaps why some have been left stranded with 2 flat batteries. I recently inadvertently left my overhead main power switch on. Among other things (I suspect) this turned on to standby mode a victron smart battery protect I have on the aux battery - a draw of around 1.4mA. No other consumables such as fridge etc. Both batteries were flat after 5 or 6 days. Perhaps I'll look at removing the smartpass and just use the D250SE to isolate the two batteries or replace the lot with a redarc dc to dc, again to isolate the 2 batteries with the redarc having a higher charging capacity. I can then look at using the Aux battery in it's true sense and run all consumables via the smart battery protect including the overhead light switches

Seems this is correct and perhaps why some have been left stranded with 2 flat batteries. I recently inadvertently left my overhead main power switch on. Among other things (I suspect) this turned on to standby mode a victron smart battery protect I have on the aux battery - a draw of around 1.4mA. No other consumables such as fridge etc. Both batteries were flat after 5 or 6 days. Perhaps I'll look at removing the smartpass and just use the D250SE to isolate the two batteries or replace the lot with a redarc dc to dc, again to isolate the 2 batteries with the redarc having a higher charging capacity. I can then look at using the Aux battery in it's true sense and run all consumables via the smart battery protect including the overhead light switches.

I'm not a fan of the CTEK system at all, no one seems to be able to be able tell me exactly how it works, Ineos or CTEK. Best info I have is from my local Ineos agent and as far as they can tell the primary battery powers everything, the secondary battery provides extra amps when needed when there's high power loads (big lights and winching etc.) and tops up the primary battery but can still drain itself flat.

I've just installed a 120W Redarc panel to my roof platform, connected to the primary battery via Redarc panel to regulator cable and Redarc 20Ah solar regulator, so far so good! I will eventually replace the CTEK system and Redarc regulator with a full Redarc system though, will probably install a Redarc 240V inverter while at it and also add another battery dedicated to the fridge, a few lights and some 12V/USB outlets.

 

[nuclearbeef]

What purpose does the CTEK 120 serve? (or is designed to serve)

I have a 12v pickup truck with 2 batteries hooked up in parallel. How is it functionally different than the Gren with the CTEK 120?
In both vehicles, both batteries are available for high loads and both batteries are capable of being drained if a "consumer" is left on too long.

 

[anand]

What purpose does the CTEK 120 serve? (or is designed to serve)

I have a 12v pickup truck with 2 batteries hooked up in parallel. How is it functionally different than the Gren with the CTEK 120?
In both vehicles, both batteries are available for high loads and both batteries are capable of being drained if a "consumer" is left on too long.

The purpose of the CTEK 120 is to isolate the two batteries. As it comes from the factory, the second battery does little (to nothing). It has the ability to send a trickle charge back to the main battery from the aux battery, but the real purpose is for the end user to hook all their add-on electrical loads to the aux battery. Then, when the truck is turned off the two batteries are separated, and you can run down the aux battery without a fear of the truck not starting.

 

[nuclearbeef]

The purpose of the CTEK 120 is to isolate the two batteries. As it comes from the factory, the second battery does little (to nothing). It has the ability to send a trickle charge back to the main battery from the aux battery, but the real purpose is for the end user to hook all their add-on electrical loads to the aux battery. Then, when the truck is turned off the two batteries are separated, and you can run down the aux battery without a fear of the truck not starting.

Ah.
OK, now I think I see.
The difference between a setup with 2 batts in parallel and one with the CTEK 120 is that in the former, either batt can draw from the other while in the latter; only the starting batt can draw from the aux. Aux can't draw from the start batt.
Did I summarize correctly?

 

[anand]

Ah.
OK, now I think I see.
The difference between a setup with 2 batts in parallel and one with the CTEK 120 is that in the former, either batt can draw from the other while in the latter; only the starting batt can draw from the aux. Aux can't draw from the start batt.
Did I summarize correctly?

Correct; the only time the aux can draw from the starting battery is to get a charge (the CTEK auto connects them when the main battery voltage is high enough to trigger the alternator is charging)

 

[ADVAW8S]

@anand. Not to be a pain but haven't we learn that the aux battery job is to provide a jump if the main battery is dead? If we look at how Ineos has set everything up, everything is powered via main battery

 

[anand]

@anand. Not to be a pain but haven't we learn that the aux battery job is to provide a jump if the main battery is dead? If we lok at how Ineos has set everything up, everything is powered via main battery

As fitted from factory, yes everything is powered via the main battery; but if you're only intention is using the aux for a "just in case jump start", you're much better off (cheaper, lighter, smaller) buying a tiny Lithium jump pack.

The Smartpass 120S allows for what CTEK calls "Start assistance", in which the unit does an automatic direct connection (suitable for 350A) between the two batteries if the main battery "is unable to start the engine" for a period of 10 seconds. This means requires a cranking voltage of <6v on the starter battery for the connection to engage.

Of course, if you have accessories that are running down the starting battery, the CTEK unit also allows the aux battery to trickle charge the starting battery, but I can't find an exact statement of amperage provided. Given that CTEK uses the phrase "trickle charge", I would imagine this is <5A, or roughly what a fridge would draw while running, meaning anything more and it won't be able to keep up. The docs do show that it will only charge the starter battery to 12.6v, which won't ever get it quite topped off.

 

[Joergchm]

Greetings,

After reading about the negative aspects of the 120S, I'm considering replacing it with a better dual-battery charger system, such as the IBS-DBM20A. Since everything is already in place, it should be easy to replace. I'd simply disconnect and unmount the 120S and replace it with the new system. What are your thoughts on this idea?

 

[DenisM]

Greetings,

After reading about the negative aspects of the 120S, I'm considering replacing it with a better dual-battery charger system, such as the IBS-DBM20A. Since everything is already in place, it should be easy to replace. I'd simply disconnect and unmount the 120S and replace it with the new system. What are your thoughts on this idea?

Not the right answer.. The advice is to take a different approach:
check the detailed post #4 by @TheDocAUS .

 

[Joergchm]

Not the right answer.. The advice is to take a different approach:
check the detailed post #4 by @TheDocAUS .

Hmmmm not sure if I get this correct.....as I understand, the only benefit of this solution is the option to add Solar Power.
All negative aspects still remain (e.g. 2nd battery can't used to start the car)...my proposed solution would fix this issue.

 

[globalgregors]

As fitted from factory, yes everything is powered via the main battery; but if you're only intention is using the aux for a "just in case jump start", you're much better off (cheaper, lighter, smaller) buying a tiny Lithium jump pack.

Well, unless you have the winch fitted… this being the use case that the high load aux setup appears to have in mind.