Battery down! And the second battery is no help...

[Kruegerruda]

This morning the battery was deeply discharged and the second battery was also unable to start the Grenny. It was no longer possible to charge the starter battery. So I swapped the second battery for the starter battery. The battery monitor showed a charge level of 27%! Apparently the trickle system, as described by Dr-Rok, also leads to suicide of the second battery if the starter battery is deeply discharged. The protection provided by the Ctek Smartbox is obviously not working. The Ineos 2 battery system is rubbish. The test drive with a 1-battery system was successful. The alternator charged the ‘new’ starter battery with up to 140A.
My questions:
- Does the CTEK box need to be removed or disconnected?
- Is it not possible to convert to a lithium starter battery with a 1-battery (AGM) system? Or will this drive the on-board electronics engineers mad?
Many error messages, airbag error, engine, yellow triangle are now disturbing. But the Grenny drives...

 

[Kruegerruda]

Maybe this: https://supervolt.de/supervolt-ultr...-bluetooth-heizung-und-integriertem-balancer/

 

[anand]

Correct, the second battery will deplete itself completely if there is a continued drain on the primary battery. The only way the "safety" jump start feature works is if it is a fairly quick drain on the primary battery (quicker than the trickle charge from the second can replace it) and the second battery has not depleted too much to be ineffective.

The vehicle has no idea whether it has the single battery setup, factory dual battery, or something else entirely. There is no monitoring beyond the main battery.

If you remove the second battery and are running the system as a single battery, you can remove all wiring associated with the CTEK.

It is absolutely possible to add a lithium second battery, assuming you also add an appropriate DC-DC charger (not an isolator like the CTEK SmartPass 120S). I have this setup with a 135Ah lithium second battery being charged by a Victron Orion XS charger

 

[Kruegerruda]

Thanks! But it is possible to use a lithium starter battery, without a second system?

 

[anand]

Thanks! But it is possible to use a lithium starter battery, without a second system?

They make lithium starter batteries, however, the problem comes in the fact that the smart alternator of modern vehicles will not charge it completely because of the very different charge profiles of lithium and EFB (or even AGM) batteries.

 

[TheDocAUS]

This morning the battery was deeply discharged and the second battery was also unable to start the Grenny. It was no longer possible to charge the starter battery. So I swapped the second battery for the starter battery. The battery monitor showed a charge level of 27%! Apparently the trickle system, as described by Dr-Rok, also leads to suicide of the second battery if the starter battery is deeply discharged. The protection provided by the Ctek Smartbox is obviously not working. The Ineos 2 battery system is rubbish. The test drive with a 1-battery system was successful. The alternator charged the ‘new’ starter battery with up to 140A.
My questions:
- Does the CTEK box need to be removed or disconnected?
- Is it not possible to convert to a lithium starter battery with a 1-battery (AGM) system? Or will this drive the on-board electronics engineers mad?
Many error messages, airbag error, engine, yellow triangle are now disturbing. But the Grenny drives...

Diagnose what caused the problem. This is not normal, so something has happened.

Get the dealer involved. Batteries may be defective, there may be a short causing the drain, you might not have driven the car for weeks etc. Get the dealer to work and diagnose the issue.

I check the state of charge of my batteries every time I drive and I also use a battery monitor. So over time I understand what is going on in the car. The system works well, when functioning properly.

 

[Tazzieman]

I check the state of charge of my batteries every time I drive and I also use a battery monitor. So over time I understand what is going on in the car. The system works well, when functioning properly.

I also perform a quick preflight check.
Noting trends is a good way of diagnosing issues.
Bluetooth battery monitor on the 2nd battery; cheap and simple.

 

[DaveB]

If it is a typical Lithium battery (not LifeP04) they are not safe to install inside a vehicle.
Not even legal in Australia without a lot of work.

 

[Quartermaster]

How long would it take to discharge the secondary battery with the trickle function when the main battery is fully discharged? Is there a current restriction by the smartpass? Or is it restricted by the time intervalls?

 

[TheDocAUS]

How long would it take to discharge the secondary battery with the trickle function when the main battery is fully discharged? Is there a current restriction by the smartpass? Or is it restricted by the time intervalls?

They are wired together, as one battery. They will go down together, with the aux battery not far behind the main battery (assuming the drain is on the main battery).

As a rule the aux battery has a better SOC than the main battery (as the main starts the car), but if you have a drain on the aux battery (say a fridge overnight) I have seen the main equalize with the aux battery giving it power. At least that is what the battery monitor graphs strongly suggest. My fridge is directly wired to the aux battery, not the main. My setup also has the CTEK250SE.

 

[Quartermaster]

Oh, that's quite some stuff in your thread @TheDocAUS , i will need some time to go through, thank you.

 

[TheDocAUS]

These two graphs show the interaction between the two batteries after 8pm (20). Car off, fridge not attached, so just power draw from the car and interaction between the two batteries.

MAIN

AUX

 

[TheDocAUS]

You can see the reverse (main to aux) when there is fridge power draw at night here. Look after 4pm (16) when the sun is no longer on the solar panel charging the aux battery.

Below is the fridge turning on and off, drawing on the aux battery. The other linked graph shows a draw on the main battery as the two equalize. At least that what it looks like is happening.

 

[Kruegerruda]

My Grenny was at the dealer, among other things to fit a winch. The car was there for three weeks. After that, there were several error messages, such as passenger airbag off. I suspect that they didn't wait long enough for the sleep mode when fitting the winch. And/or by repeatedly opening the doors, the car was on standby for three weeks and the starter battery was deeply discharged as a result. The car was then parked in my yard with the damaged battery, again for tinkering. That probably killed the battery. And the second battery couldn't prevent that.
For me, the Ineos dual-battery system is not safe enough. I will leave the starter battery with AGM or, if possible, convert to a lithium starter battery. And operate my Anker lithium power bank with built-in 2200W converter via CTEK 250S. The Anker power bank is used to operate the cool box and the espresso machine. That works perfectly.

 

[Kruegerruda]

I don't want two batteries that somehow talk to each other, push something over to each other and both end up flat if I don't monitor them. Like two crazy teenagers.

 

[Quartermaster]

@TheDocAUS Ok, i went through your graphs and find your voltage losses very minor.
My car (my 24) behaves in different way. I had the main down to about 12,3 V while the secondary was at 12,8V. Then the car started effortless and the smartpass did not indicate it was jump starting.

I will get something like the BLE to confirm.

 

[TheDocAUS]

My Grenny was at the dealer, among other things to fit a winch. The car was there for three weeks.

If they did not have it on a charger, that would explain the low battery level. The dealer should know better.

I have seen a dual battery go down 30% at the dealers when being worked on for half a day. I connected to the BLE monitor and I saw the issue and asked to them to attach a charger. I was shocked how quickly it could lose power.

 

[TheDocAUS]

I don't want two batteries that somehow talk to each other, push something over to each other and both end up flat if I don't monitor them. Like two crazy teenagers.

That is not what is going on.

The more you post the more it looks like poor handling by the dealer, damaging or depleting the batteries. As I posted earlier, get the dealer involved and ask some questions like did you have the car on a charger. Regardless say to the dealer you need a fix.

 

[Zimm]

Being that this didn't turn out to be true 2 battery setup, and more a 1+1, I carry a NOCO3000. I havent had any issues, but the computer is so glitchy with everything else, I figured it randomly draining the system is a real chance. I'm still trying to figure out how much cargo space I want to chew up with permanent cabinetry, but I may just draw something up that has space for a third lithium battery, and just treat this half assed system as one unit. Problem solved.

 

[anand]

I'm still trying to figure out how much cargo space I want to chew up with permanent cabinetry, but I may just draw something up that has space for a third lithium battery, and just treat this half assed system as one unit. Problem solved.

Or just replace the factory aux battery with a lithium set up in the same space