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Are headlights supposed to be heated?

shiv.nandak

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I had to drive through heavy snow at highway speeds during the night yesterday. The problem I had was that the headlights would get fully caked in snow. The light output would be close to 0% after about 10 mins of driving. Even high beams did nothing. Are the headlights supposed to be heated? I just want to confirm in case the heating element isn't working. I've noticed this issue multiple times during the day time and thought nothing of it.
 

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Lollo050968

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@shiv.nandak we had this topic last winter here in the forum too.
No, not possible to heat the lights, it´s a problem of all LEDs and additional the really vertical assembled lights of the Grenny. You could not do a lot. I used Nano liquid protection, that helps a bit.
 
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I had to drive through heavy snow at highway speeds during the night yesterday. The problem I had was that the headlights would get fully caked in snow. The light output would be close to 0% after about 10 mins of driving. Even high beams did nothing. Are the headlights supposed to be heated? I just want to confirm in case the heating element isn't working. I've noticed this issue multiple times during the day time and thought nothing of it.
maybe split the windscreen washer tubing and add a headlight washer or an aftermarket one
 

holdmybeer

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No, not possible to heat the lights
Can you be so certain? This LED problem is not unique to the Greandier and I reckon there could be an aftermarket solution.

The nice thing about a 4x4 is having a warm grid of wires in front of the headlight lens could offer both heating and also protection from stones, etc. And it might look "rally style", lol.

Or maybe a small arc along the bottom of the headlight is all that's needed for heat, without anything in front, to prevent a foundation of snow from piling up and anchoring itself in front of the headlight. Maybe.

This problem interests me and I'm open to an off-the-shelf or DIY solution. For a Canadian city we get minimal snow here, but within an hour's radius it becomes a problem. Grenadiers are destined for extremely snowy places. I'll definitely be doing some Northern BC and Alaska touring. I wonder if the couple racing the Alcan 5000 in their Grenadier have thoughts. @Crankshaft Culture ?

headlight_grid.jpg
 
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AWo

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May I ask what the outside temperature was?

AWo
 

[ Adam ]

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bigleonski

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This looks to be a viable option. It'd be nice if Ineos pursued it, even as an optional retrofit.


Let the aftermarket deal with it. Ineos would just add a 500% OEM tax to it anyway.

I wonder if that sort of gear would lead to headlight glass cracks due to the temperature change? Similar to what some are saying is happening with the windscreen.
 
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Maybe an item to just replace with heated 7" units or even halogens, if the wiring gauge is suitable.
 

AWo

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About 27F (-2.7C)
Ok, thanks. That is what I have expected. I guess, I can say something substantial regarding that issue.

First, icing of LED headlights only happens in a small temperature window of about 2°C to -6, maybe -7°C. That is because snow is very damp then so that it sticks. Below that temperature it is not sticky anymore and it will not cobble in a manner that it really means a problem. I was in Lappland, Sweden, over New Year and in January and we had around -40°C. I use the Nolden 7" LED headlights and I had no problem (actually I create a video regarding this subject, but it is in German). I only saw clogging on the headlights after entering Sweden in the south and on my way to Karlstad, where I drove through regions around -5°C.

(German: https://matsch-und-piste.de/wintercamping-in-skandinavien-erfahrungen-tipps/ )

The second issue supporting snow clogging up is the mounting situation. If it is funnel-shaped snow can't get away to the sides and starts to clog up from the edge to the middle. Modern cars often uses headlight shapes that bent to the side and have nothing where snow is stopped and can clog up. Snow is simply blown aside. So icing is an issue, which 4x4 fans driving cars looking like a wall and it seems we must accept the physics here...

Third, icing is a problem with LED (in that mentioned temperature range) but why there are no solutions in the market, just very few in the aftermarket? The foremost reason is CO2. If you are a car manufacturer with hundred thousands of cars, every single Watt more power needed increases the overall CO2 footprint. At least for the European Market (don't know about US, Africa and Australia) a manufacturer needs to keep the fleet emission (CO2 emissions over all registered modells) low. Otherwise penalty fees of 100 Euro per Gramm per car exceeding the allowed maximum are to be paid.
It also seems not to be a huge problem which needs to be addressed with a general solution or where more power consumption is accepted as a necessary measure. If you go to Scandinavia, you see a lot of cars, especially a lot of E-cars (which I never expected up there) which all use unheated LED (because auf their low power consumption). You can easily distinguish between the differnet light types by their colour or if you simply look at the car modell. These regions are facing several month of snow and darkness. And it works (as I said, die to the mostly low temperatures). So it seems that manufacturers and the market in general doesn't see icing of LED headlight as a problem which must be addresses (as it is also a safety issue).
There were intensions to heat the front glass of the light but all LED light manufacturers involved turned away from it. Why? The idea was to transport the heat of the LED cluster (>100°C) to the front glass. But that would have ment to use active parts (a fan). That includes two risks: passive cooling can not break. All LED lights have passive cooling. Active cooling (a fan has moving parts) increases costs, needs more space and it can break. Breaking of active cooling means an outage of the light. The second risk is, car manufacturers accepted active cooling only if the part could be repaired. That is not possible, because an integrated LED light can not be dismantled and put together again without breaking its integrity and all its photometric properties (which are essential for its homologation).

I read about a suggestion of a heated front glass. In fact there are LED lights on the market, for snow plows, which have a heated front glass. However, this is also not a preferred solution as the small heating wires in the front glas makes it far more difficult to meat the legal requirements (photometric properties, see about the grid below). BTW, these heater wires are responsible for the increased CO2 emissions I was talking about. That means more cost per unit for a problem not seen as a huge one, as I explained a few lines up from here. Aftermarket lights with heated glass which meet legal requirements are fine and whoever needs it, will pay for it. But a car manufacturer will not pay the price and increase its CO2 footprint for a problem only a few people are affected by (compared to the overall mass).

Putting a heated grid in front of the headlight is not allowed (at least where the UN-ECE regulation apply = Europe, Australia, Japan, maybe more). The homologation of a light always ends at its front glass. You're not allowed to put anything in front of that as this would change the photometric properties. There are cars which use such grids, but they a) are for emergency or military use and things like this, other rules apply here, b) they use reflector based headlights and got a homologation including the grid. As a reflector spreads the rays of light widely so that the grid only captures a few rays, you do not looose much light. A headlight with a lens bundles the rays and they start to spread on their way to the road. So a grid in front of a lens based light (LED or halogen) will cover many, many rays and thereby create big shadows on the road.

BTW, Ineos had the option to choose 7" lights so you could have exchanged them with any other 7" light on the market. And there are quite a lot, also heated ones. But the Ineos design department wanted their own design ending up in a unique size, you find nowhere in the market.

AWo
 
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AWo

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At -35°C icing of the windscreen outside is not an real or often happening issue, is it? The outside air is so dry, there is no humidity to ice something, when you're already down to that temperature for some time. It may ice if the car stood somewhere some time.

At --40°C my windscreen iced from the inside. Humidity taken into the inside of the car by shoes and your breath settled down on the windscreen (and all other screens)

Cheers
AWo
 
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anand

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Honestly, I just assumed the headlights would off the shelf replaceable considering the trucks mission... wtf.
Nothing is truly off the shelf; the components are built by well known suppliers, but pretty much everything is bespoke for the Grenadier (brakes, seats, axles/drivetrain, etc.)... I guess the motor could be considered off the shelf, but really only the long block and accessories are
 

AWo

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So, theses aren't 7" headlights and are proprietary?
Yes. It is an Ineos lead development. Parts of the most inner lights technology, drivers and electronics did exist but was implemented in a new housing (that is not as trivial as one might think) and the surroundig fibre wss new, which is also not an easy task to implement if the customer has some special requirements touching the headlight design.

If certain parts, like the size or the inner bezel are modified (even if only the size is affected), you need a new homologation, so you can consider it as a new headlight.

Cheers
AWo
 

AWo

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Nothing is truly off the shelf; the components are built by well known suppliers, but pretty much everything is bespoke for the Grenadier (brakes, seats, axles/drivetrain, etc.)... I guess the motor could be considered off the shelf, but really only the long block and accessories are
The engine, cooler and exhaust cone as a complete package from BMW. It must be used as it is.

Even if all parts are from the shelf the integration of all parts is a complex and heavy work. I know about a few small car projects up in the 300,000 Euros and more. There is a almost complete chassis with engine and drivetrain under the body, but the guys have to think about soooooo many things to get things working. They're never on time and most issues are design driven. A few engineers would get such a car on the road in an acceptable time...but how would that car look like...think about cars, locomotives and planes in the 19th centuary...just finction counted. Ha, then there are designers, stealing space, making radiuses smaller, lower the windscreen, put useless lights in front of the cooler decreasing cooling power, decrease the height of the side floor (think about the BMW Z1 door, the engineers had to be very clever to make this design possible). Such things...

And then, when engineers and designers lay in each others arms, the Champagne is open....then when all think the war is over...in exactly this moment...a finance controller enters the room....

And there is another route....if you have strong engineers and strong controllers.....you get such a beatiful car like the Land Rover Series with a good functionality, but poor parts.

AWo
 
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Nothing is truly off the shelf; the components are built by well known suppliers, but pretty much everything is bespoke for the Grenadier (brakes, seats, axles/drivetrain, etc.)... I guess the motor could be considered off the shelf, but really only the long block and accessories are
I'm not attempting to get into semantics. To install new headlights in my fj's, I took 7" jw speaker headlights and used the hella connector to a relay so they would have their own power source. I could use the same lights in my mgbgt or 911. Mild bucket trimming for the driver/cooling fins was needed, sure, but the units are 7", fit 7" buckets, and can be sighted in with the factory headlight adjustments. Thus "off the shelf" 7" units work. Otherwise whats the whole POINT of using a large round headlight that is not ideal for either LED technology or Aerodynamics??

If a rig is intended to be a working rig around the third world, it should have easily replaceable emitters (what used to be lamps) or headlight assemblies. Otherwise, 7"round"ish" proprietary is rather stupid. We're hemmed in like any other modern car, except they make use of the led emitters attributes to make a front end that aerodynamic.

You can take a JW speaker heated 7" round and slap that right into a jeep... Brilliant... I can't think of a design purpose that was achied to deviate from that.
 
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