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alignment specs/SAI odd

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The primary angles below track just fine on 2 lane and highway, with the tire PSI set to the high 40's. So, if you're looking for target numbers, these may work for ya. Needing tires at 36psi always seemed odd to me.

After a dealer alignment, and now an independent realignment the car still pulls left. Check out the SAI....

Anyone have any SAI numbers from an alignment they care to share?


IMG_3647.jpg
 
Just going by the final numbers shown that seems like a lot of caster has been dialed in? 2 degrees is the nominal factory setting I believe unless IA has changed the specification recently to help stem all the complaints of lack of steering wheel centering? I’d be curious to see how sharp of angles your front driveshaft CV’s are running at now as more caster will push the front diff pinion even further down.

Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) does seem to be off quite a bit from side to side and could be contributing to the pull did front suspension take a big hit off-road at some point? I’m no expert but for most alignments you want things to be mostly symmetrical from side to side otherwise it may indicate bent or incorrect tolerance components. Sure, there are certain older models of vehicles where slightly different specs side to side were used to account for road crown or vehicle loading but I don’t think that is the case here.

I’d seek a second or third opinion on it for sure as the rear axle could be a bit straighter so not to introduce a crabbing angle although it’s not far off.
 
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The primary angles below track just fine on 2 lane and highway, with the tire PSI set to the high 40's. So, if you're looking for target numbers, these may work for ya. Needing tires at 36psi always seemed odd to me.

After a dealer alignment, and now an independent realignment the car still pulls left. Check out the SAI....

Anyone have any SAI numbers from an alignment they care to share?


View attachment 7888731
Now it may just be that the date is not set on their aligner, else this is not a report for your vehicle.

Screenshot_20250305-130911.png
 
Just going by the final numbers shown that seems like a lot of caster has been dialed in? 2 degrees is the nominal factory setting I believe unless IA has changed the specification recently to help stem all the complaints of lack of steering wheel centering? I’d be curious to see how sharp of angles your front driveshaft CV’s are running at now as more caster will push the front diff pinion even further down.

Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) does seem to be off quite a bit from side to side and could be contributing to the pull did front suspension take a big hit off-road at some point? I’m no expert but for most alignments you want things to be mostly symmetrical from side to side otherwise it may indicate bent or incorrect tolerance components. Sure, there are certain older models of vehicles where slightly different specs side to side were used to account for road crown or vehicle loading but I don’t think that is the case here.

I’d seek a second or third opinion on it for sure as the rear axle could be a bit straighter so not to introduce a crabbing angle although it’s not far off.
One degree over spec isn't going to kill a CV. I wanted to see what tracking was like with maximum possible caster, since I already knew there wasn't much left in the bucket. I'll likely dial it back to 3 and see what changes. I will say, that little bit really affects stability.

The difference in the SAI means the knuckle wasn't welded to the axle housing correctly. Now, that could be welding method and heat, or, just a misalignment, a lack of QC. Who the f**k knows.

I know plenty of people have said their truck tracks perfect. Also plenty of people have had never ending issues. I had this aligned at RDS (dealer) 1000 miles ago, and they said it was definitely out but they got it spot on, but, I did not get a number sheet and it was actually worse on the road. The initial #'s on this sheet would be after the RDS alignment. So, I took it in locally and said I wanted secondary numbers also, not just a consumer pictogram. This is what I got after they realigned it.

I haven't done anything to the car, and will not until all warranty related issues are sorted. I tested the 4wd system on a gravel hill outside of my warehouse, that's it besides mall duty.

Moving on, I spoke with RDS yesterday, and they had shown these numbers to the tech that was in monday moving their machine to a new location, and he agrees there's an issue somewhere due to the difference, I'm going to take it in a third time to make sure the local tech had the wheels locked down correctly. They could not tell me what the factory number is supposed to be, and Inoes did not respond to the request. I'm sure there's a tolerance. We only agreed that the difference is too much and ought not be there. So far, so good with RDS. They are just 4.5 hrs away so I need to handle little shit like data gathering myself, or they would have it.

If it turns out the SAI is wackadoodle on a third check, then there may be a QA issue with carrero. Having dealt with Italian manufacturing in a previous life, and nothing would shock me. Yea, they do make tractor axles, and this variance wouldn't be an issue on a tractor axle and I have no doubt this would get pushed out the door. I kinda want this to be it, because then theres hope for remediation.

Stay tuned. It may be a few weeks before I have more time to commit to another alignment.
 
Hope you get it sorted one way or another.

Finding a good alignment shop willing to do more than a basic toe adjustment always seems to be a problem. It’s either undertrained techs, old alignment equipment, or complete indifference from the shop as a whole as they are more interested in getting jobs in and out than the quality of their work or customers concerns. I know there are competent shops out there but you have to dedicate considerable time and energy to find one which I always find exasperating.

And to top it all off you get your vehicle back and the steering wheel is off-center. Luckily on the Grenadier you can re-center the steering wheel yourself but you still have to live in hope they got the rest of the alignment correct unless you want to mess around with strings or aftermarket DIY gadgets to set it up yourself.
 
Hope you get it sorted one way or another.

Finding a good alignment shop willing to do more than a basic toe adjustment always seems to be a problem. It’s either undertrained techs, old alignment equipment, or complete indifference from the shop as a whole as they are more interested in getting jobs in and out than the quality of their work or customers concerns. I know there are competent shops out there but you have to dedicate considerable time and energy to find one which I always find exasperating.

And to top it all off you get your vehicle back and the steering wheel is off-center. Luckily on the Grenadier you can re-center the steering wheel yourself but you still have to live in hope they got the rest of the alignment correct unless you want to mess around with strings or aftermarket DIY gadgets to set it up yourself.
Considering there are only two adjustable items on the Grenadier unlike IFS IRS vehicles what more can you ask for. Steering wheel alignment is part of setting toe.

Any other numbers you get are simply because their machine spits that out regardless. But non of it is adjustable without bending metal.
 
We've been running 38-40 in the front and 40-42lbs in the rear and seem to track straight on blacktop. When I had the pressures lower the vehicle seemed "floaty". Kind of like a big old Cadillac so I went back up a bit. All four tires were in the mid 40s (hard as rock) when we first picked it up from the dealer so I lowered them immediately. High pressures do shorten tread life down the center but if you're buying new sets every couple of years then it's not a big deal.

@Zimm - Is there anything in your numbers that indicate crabbing?
 
We've been running 38-40 in the front and 40-42lbs in the rear and seem to track straight on blacktop. When I had the pressures lower the vehicle seemed "floaty". Kind of like a big old Cadillac so I went back up a bit. All four tires were in the mid 40s (hard as rock) when we first picked it up from the dealer so I lowered them immediately. High pressures do shorten tread life down the center but if you're buying new sets every couple of years then it's not a big deal.

@Zimm - Is there anything in your numbers that indicate crabbing?
The RDS alignment was slightly out if you notice. Not now.
 
Considering there are only two adjustable items on the Grenadier unlike IFS IRS vehicles what more can you ask for. Steering wheel alignment is part of setting toe.

Any other numbers you get are simply because their machine spits that out regardless. But non of it is adjustable without bending metal.
I think the linkage permits wheel adjustment without affecting anything else.
 
Correct, steering wheel alignment is typically set during the toe procedure on most vehicles but if they did get it wrong and the steering is off slightly you can either have them redo it or make corrections to the drag link adjuster yourself between the steering box and where it’s connects to the knuckle without changing toe. The assumption of course is they got the toe settings right on the main tie rod connecting both front wheels so all you’d be correcting is the steering wheel center point.

It’ll take a few goes and test drives to nail it but it’s possible and done it many times on old Land Rovers. There is a thread on this forum somewhere showing how you can do it on the Grenadier but the goal is to have the alignment shop get it right first time.
 
Have you considered taking the car to a truck wheel aligning shop to check that can check axle straightness. There may be a manufacturing issue with how the knuckle or longer right axle tube was machined or assembled or the axle is bent. Truck shops tend to deal with rigid steer axle alignments more than a car shop and some of the shops have the equipment to slightly bend the axle to correct faults. There also may be the need for an alignment shop to collect SAI from other Ineos' to get an average result or Ineos could just supply the data. It would be good to see the results from a different rack even if there were no adjustments made. Use the data from other alignment racks and take back to your preferred shop for comparison and adjustment.
The drawings are from the slightly larger Carraro HS6.07 front drive steer axle (sized between Dana 70 & 80). This axle is used with parabolic springs. Due to the lack of available data from Ineos these drawings are for very loose reference to compare against the Ineos axle as the basic designs are near identical. I do not have the data for the smaller axles. The HS6.07 axle were fitted to a permanent 4x4 light truck application. It was found they needed about 1 to 3mm toe out as the data from Carraro was for a part time application that will generally have toe in.

Carraro HS6.07 drawing 1.png

Carraro HS6.07 Drawing 2.png
 
11*. For some reason 13* on a Dana was in my head. 22* is clearly nuts.

As to having medium/heavy truck shop look at it, I’m not having anything straightened. It’s under the warranty I paid for at sticker price. If it all checks out bad, that’s a new assembly.

My primary purpose for posting was to see if anyone else had those numbers from an alignment, and this being a possible contributing source of the steering complaints. One thing I never see on any cars, even live axle recirc ball pickups, is the number of complaints about wandering and steering issues. The last truck I saw get bitched about like this was fords twin I beam billshit.

Like I said, I actually hope this is the issue. It’s had a factory alignment, a dealer alignment, and an independent alignment and all have failed. If the SAI comes back on try 4 as gtg, I’m out of guesses. 4 independent people sucking at their job doesn’t seem likely.
 
I'd suggest that it's possible a calibration was skipped due to not needing that spec for the alignment. I honestly hope you find I am wrong though. It would be amazing to find a source of the wonky steering some have and some claim to not have. If your 4th check focuses on the non adjustable items and comes back bad then I will seek out a shop to check mine in detail as well.
 
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