Ad Blue bypass

[ORSO]

I thought a full tank would last that long, and it might come close if you were very lucky but it’s pushing it. But I have done 13,000km and have had to put 30litres in so far, although I just put the last 10 in last week.

7900kms and 30l of AdBlue so far. So I’d budget on a tank every 4000kms. Anyone know if you can adjust AdBlue flow rate?

i have the same problem. 10lt of adBlue for 5.000 km....

I asked my mechanic to find out but to date everything is silent....

 

[Eric]

Hi. I have a Diesel version and was wondering if there is a way of bypassing the Ad Blue usage in case I travel to a country with no Ad Blue (South America fro example). Is there a module or something that can be override?

Thanks

Does anyone know what will happen if you use water instead of adblue, in case of emergency?
AdBlue consists of 2/3 demineralised water anyway.

Or date expired adblue? There is supposedly a sensor that monitors the concentration/quality of the adblue.

 

[douggie]

This seems awfully high for a 3l diesel. I put 10l in after about 9000km, which incidentally was roughly the same usage as my 3l diesel G-Wagen has been getting consistently for ten years.

I agree and I have raised it with Ineos through the dealer. To be fair I was towing a big van for 4700kms of that and my fuel average across all running is about 17.5l/100kms. So AdBlue running at 2.5% of fuel about 2-3 times what I expected. This is my first vehicle with AdBlue.

 

[bemax]

I thought a full tank would last that long, and it might come close if you were very lucky but it’s pushing it. But I have done 13,000km and have had to put 30litres in so far, although I just put the last 10 in last week.

I had to refill after 9500 km with 1500 km to go.
So for me it’s more than 10000 km with one filling.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I've done ~60k miles on a TD6 Discovery 5 w/AdBlue - the consumption is directly related to driving conditions.

Hard acceleration and towing will eat it up.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Typical example of UK specialist, happy to disarm the system.

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[ChasingOurTrunks]

So here's question:

What happens when you run out of AdBlue?

I was in Ireland recently in a rented diesel Opel - and I loved it - but we ran low on AdBlue and a quick google suggested that the vehicle would enter a limp-home state and not run right.

Is that expected of the Grenadier?

I can understand if its the same due to regulations but it would be a shame - stranger things have happened than getting a stick through a tank of ancillary fluids in the bush, and so for actual backcountry troubleshooting it would be good to know how these parts behave when there's a problem or failure.

 

[Cheshire cat]

So here's question:

What happens when you run out of AdBlue?

I was in Ireland recently in a rented diesel Opel - and I loved it - but we ran low on AdBlue and a quick google suggested that the vehicle would enter a limp-home state and not run right.

Is that expected of the Grenadier?

I can understand if its the same due to regulations but it would be a shame - stranger things have happened than getting a stick through a tank of ancillary fluids in the bush, and so for actual backcountry troubleshooting it would be good to know how these parts behave when there's a problem or failure.

I think is would be as you imagine. It would shut down. Bearing in mind, the vehicle will warn you with perhaps a 1000 miles to run, not too many excuses for failing to top up.

 

[AnD3rew]

So here's question:

What happens when you run out of AdBlue?

I was in Ireland recently in a rented diesel Opel - and I loved it - but we ran low on AdBlue and a quick google suggested that the vehicle would enter a limp-home state and not run right.

Is that expected of the Grenadier?

I can understand if its the same due to regulations but it would be a shame - stranger things have happened than getting a stick through a tank of ancillary fluids in the bush, and so for actual backcountry troubleshooting it would be good to know how these parts behave when there's a problem or failure.

Car warns you when getting low, but if you push it to the end and run out it will let you keep driving until you shut the car down but won’t restart until you fill it. The adblue tanks sit way up high under the load pace above the exhaust etc so chances of putting a stick through either of them (there are 2) is pretty much zero

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Car warns you when getting low, but if you push it to the end and run out it will let you keep driving until you shut the car down but won’t restart until you fill it. The adblue tanks sit way up high under the load pace above the exhaust etc so chances of putting a stick through either of them (there are 2) is pretty much zero

This is brilliant - that means it'll always "get you home" should disaster strike (or at least get you out of the dangerous bits to a place where you can fill up). It's also good to know the tank is protected against some disasters - human laziness is a major contributor to disaster though so I'll say that's still on the list of possible risks so knowing it doesn't just sit down is good info to have!

I've had a bad battery in my rig once - it wouldn't hold a charge - and that meant I had to keep my motor moting for about 1300 kms until I got home and could install a replacement -- it gave up on me outside of Winnipeg, so we drove through the night back to Edmonton so that we'd be in our home garage to do the work the next day. It wasn't an ideal situation as that meant keeping the car running at gas stations, but it was around -40 Celcius and so the attendants didn't seem to mind given our situation. The point is - you can compromise on some stuff as long as you are aware of what's going on with a reasonably high degree of safety in unique situations, whereas if the Gren automatically went into a limp-home state, that would be a "forced" compromise which is always going to be ignorant of context, and that can make problems a lot worse. So, it's good to know Ineos honoured the "minimal nanny systems" ethos on the DEF side of things.

I think is would be as you imagine. It would shut down. Bearing in mind, the vehicle will warn you with perhaps a 1000 miles to run, not too many excuses for failing to top up.

This is also true - these motors sip DEF, and it's available at every service station that sells fuel so there's really no excuse to run out in most situations. I like the "swiss cheese model" of risk management though - the idea being that if you only have one protection against a disaster, imagine that one protection like a piece of swiss cheese - its got holes in it, and hazards can and do sometimes find those holes and get past your protection. Putting in a second piece of cheese - just one other control - means that a hazard has to go through two holes to be a problem, and the odds of two holes lining up are smaller. Add a third layer, the odds reduce further, and so on. DEF could run out if there's only one piece of cheese - I can picture a lovely conversation with my wife in the future that has a lot of "I thought YOU filled the ad blue" followed by "No I was on snack duty I thought YOU filled the ad blue" - but those would be rare and I think your point about how big a problem running out may be is actually quite unlikely and small.

 

[ORSO]

i have the same problem. 10lt of adBlue for 5.000 km....

I asked my mechanic to find out but to date everything is silent....

Edit:
1.690 km after refueling with ADblue this morning the reserve light came on

I stopped at a petrol station and filled up with 13 litres.

There must be something wrong.

 

[Jiman01]

Interesting how different brands/models/regulations affect what happens when you run out of DEF. On my RV Sprinter (US), apparently if you run out, you get 3 engine starts before it bricks the engine…until DEF is refilled.

 

[Cheshire cat]

I am wondering, if the system is bypassed, apart from any legal infringements, would a dormant system deteriorate quicker than if in use? I will ask the question when I contact one of the companies that specialise in such work.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Edit:
1.690 km after refueling with ADblue this morning the reserve light came on

I stopped at a petrol station and filled up with 13 litres.

There must be something wrong.

Is it a lower mileage gren? I'm under the impression that these DEF systems on modern diesels will tailor them into the use style of the driver, and so "something wrong" may just be "using a lot of extra while it tries to map out the right amount to use based on how the vehicle is driven" if it's very low mileage (but this is 100% speculative on my part - I genuinely do not know for sure but hopefully others weigh in).

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I am wondering, if the system is bypassed, apart from any legal infringements, would a dormant system deteriorate quicker than if in use? I will ask the question when I contact one of the companies that specialise in such work.

The ideal solution in my books would be make it selectable so I'd be interested in this answer as well. I'm not sure if a typical DEF delete means an actual removal of parts - it seems to from what I see in North America - or if the parts remain in situ and the programming is changed to stop them being used.

My thinking on a selectable DEF system: you can keep everything running as it should when in environments where DEF and Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel are available, but you can turn it off if you are having to rely on high Sulphur diesel or are in a region where DEF isn't available. This feature would 100% be abused by some, and only super useful to a small handful of people around the world, but if we weren't a species curious about the obscure we'd probably still be hunter-gatherers so I reckon this is still a good question But, I've never heard of such a thing existing - only full on deletes.

From what I read, the DEF system (Ad Blue) is only one of three components in a typical DEF delete - first up is the Diesel Particulate filter, which is an exhaust component. Next up is the DEF injector, followed by Catalytic Converter. Any selectable system would need to be based on a Baja boats-style of "selectable exhaust" (as in, route the exhaust differently to bypass the DPF, not just reprogram to prevent DEF injection/recirculation). Given the use case is so small, it's likely too complex to be commercially viable, but it's at least theoretically possible.

 

[MrMike]

The ideal solution in my books would be make it selectable so I'd be interested in this answer as well. I'm not sure if a typical DEF delete means an actual removal of parts - it seems to from what I see in North America - or if the parts remain in situ and the programming is changed to stop them being used.

My thinking on a selectable DEF system: you can keep everything running as it should when in environments where DEF and Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel are available, but you can turn it off if you are having to rely on high Sulphur diesel or are in a region where DEF isn't available. This feature would 100% be abused by some, and only super useful to a small handful of people around the world, but if we weren't a species curious about the obscure we'd probably still be hunter-gatherers so I reckon this is still a good question But, I've never heard of such a thing existing - only full on deletes.

From what I read, the DEF system (Ad Blue) is only one of three components in a typical DEF delete - first up is the Diesel Particulate filter, which is an exhaust component. Next up is the DEF injector, followed by Catalytic Converter. Any selectable system would need to be based on a Baja boats-style of "selectable exhaust" (as in, route the exhaust differently to bypass the DPF, not just reprogram to prevent DEF injection/recirculation). Given the use case is so small, it's likely too complex to be commercially viable, but it's at least theoretically possible.

DEF delete is just that, no need to do the DPF or cat, and if you did so there would be tell tale signs you did so, so chances you would be in serious trouble.
I seriously don't know what all the concern is about, we run DEF vehicles and use comparatively little adblue. If you're going remote take some, 5lt will last thousands of klms.

 

[Voader - Oudersopzwier]

Is it a lower mileage gren? I'm under the impression that these DEF systems on modern diesels will tailor them into the use style of the driver, and so "something wrong" may just be "using a lot of extra while it tries to map out the right amount to use based on how the vehicle is driven" if it's very low mileage (but this is 100% speculative on my part - I genuinely do not know for sure but hopefully others weigh in).

I noticed that it fills very difficul. It jumps off after a few seconds. So you have to keep pushing to get the tank full. So maybe it wasn’t filled the whole way. Also, once filled up it take some time that you actually see on the counter how many Km you can drive with a full AdBlue tank.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

DEF delete is just that, no need to do the DPF or cat, and if you did so there would be tell tale signs you did so, so chances you would be in serious trouble.
I seriously don't know what all the concern is about, we run DEF vehicles and use comparatively little adblue. If you're going remote take some, 5lt will last thousands of klms.

There is, in my opinion, a very narrow window of “need” to do a DEF delete on a new grenadier and that’s for an internationally travelling vehicle. But even then, you could argue that the better choice is a petrol vehicle for that application.

On older grenadiers (none exist yet!) I can see people wanting to explore this option (where regulations allow) in the event of component/system failure - if legally allowed it may be easier/cheaper to delete the system than to repair it - or in the event of wanting to run the vehicle on unconventional oils (ie cooking oil).

All three of these are VERY niche applications though. Folks in many places use DEF is not at all a problem, and not something to fuss over like you’ve mentioned. The DPF is a separate thing, but it may warrant modification for the use cases described above - will a DPF get clogged super fast with high sulphur diesel? - but to me it’s more a question of “what needs to be modified for the tool to be appropriate for these (admittedly quite niche) use cases?” And less about getting rid of it for the sake of it. Some folks want DEF deletes from an ideological place but that makes little sense to me - the risk/reward ratio has never added up.

I have heard that these emissions systems reintroduce contamination into the engine which can reduce overall lifespan but it’s not clear to me if that’s an ideologically-driven talking point or if there’s evidence of that wear and tear being common - I just don’t know, but other that this I’m not sure there is a reason to modify these systems if the vehicle is always going to be operated where modern ULS diesel and DEF are legislatively the only option available (as is the case in most of the western world).

 

[MrMike]

There is, in my opinion, a very narrow window of “need” to do a DEF delete on a new grenadier and that’s for an internationally travelling vehicle. But even then, you could argue that the better choice is a petrol vehicle for that application.

On older grenadiers (none exist yet!) I can see people wanting to explore this option (where regulations allow) in the event of component/system failure - if legally allowed it may be easier/cheaper to delete the system than to repair it - or in the event of wanting to run the vehicle on unconventional oils (ie cooking oil).

All three of these are VERY niche applications though. Folks in many places use DEF is not at all a problem, and not something to fuss over like you’ve mentioned. The DPF is a separate thing, but it may warrant modification for the use cases described above - will a DPF get clogged super fast with high sulphur diesel? - but to me it’s more a question of “what needs to be modified for the tool to be appropriate for these (admittedly quite niche) use cases?” And less about getting rid of it for the sake of it. Some folks want DEF deletes from an ideological place but that makes little sense to me - the risk/reward ratio has never added up.

I have heard that these emissions systems reintroduce contamination into the engine which can reduce overall lifespan but it’s not clear to me if that’s an ideologically-driven talking point or if there’s evidence of that wear and tear being common - I just don’t know, but other that this I’m not sure there is a reason to modify these systems if the vehicle is always going to be operated where modern ULS diesel and DEF are legislatively the only option available (as is the case in most of the western world).

You are correct in saying petrol would be the preferred choice of the international overlander.

The system that reintroduces emissions is the EGR system on all modern diesels, this is one system I will delete (I have had it done on my Landcruiser) this puts exhaust emissions back into the combustion chamber

 

[DenisM]

You are correct in saying petrol would be the preferred choice of the international overlander.

The system that reintroduces emissions is the EGR system on all modern diesels, this is one system I will delete (I have had it done on my Landcruiser) this puts exhaust emissions back into the combustion chamber

Having read yet again in detail, the "BMW University' B57 engine training document posted on this forum, I am beginning to change my view on EGR and AdBlue (DEF) deletion! Coupled with this I have sought other explanations regarding the function of the Cat. converter (= SCR) and the particulate filter (DPF).
The B57 setup in the Grenadier has two devices which separate oil from the gases in the EGR system (precluding the need for catch cans). Further, the non-combustible gases in the EGR system are siphoned off and treated via the DEF /AdBlue system . I hadn't realised the 'subtleties' of this engine until I examined these in detail. The "Euro6" standard, despite my initial 'reluctant squirming" to accept, actually maintains power and torque as well as producing a much cleaner outcome which should enhance engine life. The adherence to regular oil changes using high quality low ash oils is critical also to reduce the gradual build up within the DPF of non combustible deposits....
It's given me good reason to leave well alone...
So endeth the lesson for today