A small point of rationalization of anxieties.

[alvan]

I think it deserves a summary of everything that has happened since the first presentation of the idea to today, just to ease the tension a bit and get everything back to normal.
If it all started from scratch in 2017, it took six years to invent a brand, a factory and a vehicle from scratch.
Even in times of design acceleration, that doesn't seem like too much time to get things right.
The first prototypes that we have been able to touch are from 2020, three years ago.
If there was a mistake - but I find it hard to consider it a mistake, if not a proof of naive honesty - it was the desire to share every step from the beginning.
I challenge other brands to publicly share all the technical documents as they were defined, thus creating great expectations among potential buyers who believed that the overall project was limited to this.
What's more, from the initial idea - almost a JR toy - we naturally moved on to a real industrial enterprise, the only possibility to guarantee the long life of the brand and the level of engineering achieved today.
Probably, but it is justifiable, before proceeding to set up the commercial, administrative and logistical structure, the technical project was allowed to advance a little too much, perhaps underestimating the degree of commercial complexity that today is required of a car manufacturer with pretensions industrial, albeit niche.
Therefore, if today we seem to lose patience due to the 'long wait', in reality we owe it to the fact that having been involved from the beginning, we are facing a time which is not the normal one between order and delivery but which includes the whole conception and to this we must refer.

 

[Steveo]

I think it deserves a summary of everything that has happened since the first presentation of the idea to today, just to ease the tension a bit and get everything back to normal.
If it all started from scratch in 2017, it took six years to invent a brand, a factory and a vehicle from scratch.
Even in times of design acceleration, that doesn't seem like too much time to get things right.
The first prototypes that we have been able to touch are from 2020, three years ago.
If there was a mistake - but I find it hard to consider it a mistake, if not a proof of naive honesty - it was the desire to share every step from the beginning.
I challenge other brands to publicly share all the technical documents as they were defined, thus creating great expectations among potential buyers who believed that the overall project was limited to this.
What's more, from the initial idea - almost a JR toy - we naturally moved on to a real industrial enterprise, the only possibility to guarantee the long life of the brand and the level of engineering achieved today.
Probably, but it is justifiable, before proceeding to set up the commercial, administrative and logistical structure, the technical project was allowed to advance a little too much, perhaps underestimating the degree of commercial complexity that today is required of a car manufacturer with pretensions industrial, albeit niche.
Therefore, if today we seem to lose patience due to the 'long wait', in reality we owe it to the fact that having been involved from the beginning, we are facing a time which is not the normal one between order and delivery but which includes the whole conception and to this we must refer.

I agree wholeheartedly @alvan !

 

[Logsplitter]

I think it deserves a summary of everything that has happened since the first presentation of the idea to today, just to ease the tension a bit and get everything back to normal.
If it all started from scratch in 2017, it took six years to invent a brand, a factory and a vehicle from scratch.
Even in times of design acceleration, that doesn't seem like too much time to get things right.
The first prototypes that we have been able to touch are from 2020, three years ago.
If there was a mistake - but I find it hard to consider it a mistake, if not a proof of naive honesty - it was the desire to share every step from the beginning.
I challenge other brands to publicly share all the technical documents as they were defined, thus creating great expectations among potential buyers who believed that the overall project was limited to this.
What's more, from the initial idea - almost a JR toy - we naturally moved on to a real industrial enterprise, the only possibility to guarantee the long life of the brand and the level of engineering achieved today.
Probably, but it is justifiable, before proceeding to set up the commercial, administrative and logistical structure, the technical project was allowed to advance a little too much, perhaps underestimating the degree of commercial complexity that today is required of a car manufacturer with pretensions industrial, albeit niche.
Therefore, if today we seem to lose patience due to the 'long wait', in reality we owe it to the fact that having been involved from the beginning, we are facing a time which is not the normal one between order and delivery but which includes the whole conception and to this we must refer.

I agree and don’t mind waiting for the vehicle to be perfect, but not now I’ve paid in full. If we have been asked to pay in full then the vehicle should be ready for delivery to the customer in my view.

 

[Tazzieman]

I agree and don’t mind waiting for the vehicle to be perfect, but not now I’ve paid in full. If we have been asked to pay in full then the vehicle should be ready for delivery to the customer in my view.

Here is a song that sums up the complexities of your situation.
If you don't like the best UK blues rock band of the past 25 years , well I tried!

View: https://youtu.be/A-dC7w11lOk

 

[Logsplitter]

I’d liked to be there listening to that with a beer in hand

 

[klarie]

I think it deserves a summary of everything that has happened since the first presentation of the idea to today, just to ease the tension a bit and get everything back to normal.
If it all started from scratch in 2017, it took six years to invent a brand, a factory and a vehicle from scratch.
Even in times of design acceleration, that doesn't seem like too much time to get things right.
The first prototypes that we have been able to touch are from 2020, three years ago.
If there was a mistake - but I find it hard to consider it a mistake, if not a proof of naive honesty - it was the desire to share every step from the beginning.
I challenge other brands to publicly share all the technical documents as they were defined, thus creating great expectations among potential buyers who believed that the overall project was limited to this.
What's more, from the initial idea - almost a JR toy - we naturally moved on to a real industrial enterprise, the only possibility to guarantee the long life of the brand and the level of engineering achieved today.
Probably, but it is justifiable, before proceeding to set up the commercial, administrative and logistical structure, the technical project was allowed to advance a little too much, perhaps underestimating the degree of commercial complexity that today is required of a car manufacturer with pretensions industrial, albeit niche.
Therefore, if today we seem to lose patience due to the 'long wait', in reality we owe it to the fact that having been involved from the beginning, we are facing a time which is not the normal one between order and delivery but which includes the whole conception and to this we must refer.

100% indeed. In particular the small manufacturers have a lot of effort to "throw" into development.. so it ususally takes 6-8 years to get a vehicle roadworthy. Given the fact that most other manufacturers may rely on a larger holding such as Bugatti or Lamborghini or were already a long time in the automotive business. - None of this is Ineos. Ineos is neither a part of a very large automotive company nor has a history in small case automotive. The fact 2017-2023 just 6 years quite a challenge and the lower end in time of what it requires to get a vehicle on the road, on changing regulations and of course this Corona shite and economic crisis as hindering effects. - Of course, the Grenadier is by technology neither "evolution" nor innovative. It is an old school conservative vehicle and a best of breed of proven technology. So there was less reasearch required but more of what ist there proven and what was always annoying in past vehicles and current SUV. That allowed for a relatively short cycle to get the car to as it is now. I am not "sick of waiting" I d' rather have a vehicle that is reliable and grown out of initial issues. (In German "Kinderkrankheit" / Teething trouble)

Til now I did not notice any customer vehicle on the road but this will change.

 

[Logsplitter]

100% indeed. In particular the small manufacturers have a lot of effort to "throw" into development.. so it ususally takes 6-8 years to get a vehicle roadworthy. Given the fact that most other manufacturers may rely on a larger holding such as Bugatti or Lamborghini or were already a long time in the automotive business. - None of this is Ineos. Ineos is neither a part of a very large automotive company nor has a history in small case automotive. The fact 2017-2023 just 6 years quite a challenge and the lower end in time of what it requires to get a vehicle on the road, on changing regulations and of course this Corona shite and economic crisis as hindering effects. - Of course, the Grenadier is by technology neither "evolution" nor innovative. It is an old school conservative vehicle and a best of breed of proven technology. So there was less reasearch required but more of what ist there proven and what was always annoying in past vehicles and current SUV. That allowed for a relatively short cycle to get the car to as it is now. I am not "sick of waiting" I d' rather have a vehicle that is reliable and grown out of initial issues. (In German "Kinderkrankheit" / Teething trouble)

Til now I did not notice any customer vehicle on the road but this will change.

Hi Klarie. I see you are not sick of waiting but have you paid yet ?

 

[klarie]

Hi Klarie. I see you are not sick of waiting but have you paid yet ?

Just the 2500 Euro at ordering. Yes The rest will be paid - if a handover date with the agent is confirmed. According to Ineos T&C.

The reason why I am currently not sick of waiting - the estimated delivery date is already somewhat q4 perhaps or later. - So what- I will not sell mine before the Grenadier is at home. Currently thinking not to sell the Disco but keep it too. Will get more road tyres again and use it as a pure on road.
So as I am intending to use the Grenadier more utilitarian even as a fieldmaster - I am not an overlander and I will not make any plans what to do with it until it is in my possession. patience is rather "natural habit". - It takes quite a lot to get me frustrated - otherwise I couldn't do my job.

 

[Logsplitter]

Just the 2500 Euro at ordering. Yes The rest will be paid - if a handover date with the agent is confirmed. According to Ineos T&C.

The reason why I am currently not sick of waiting - the estimated delivery date is already somewhat q4 perhaps or later. - So what- I will not sell mine before the Grenadier is at home. Currently thinking not to sell the Disco but keep it too. Will get more road tyres again and use it as a pure on road.
So as I am intending to use the Grenadier more utilitarian even as a fieldmaster - I am not an overlander and I will not make any plans what to do with it until it is in my possession. patience is rather "natural habit". - It takes quite a lot to get me frustrated - otherwise I couldn't do my job.

Thank you. Yes I’m afraid patience Is not top of my list of virtues.

 

[YellowLab]

Just the 2500 Euro at ordering. Yes The rest will be paid - if a handover date with the agent is confirmed. According to Ineos T&C.

The reason why I am currently not sick of waiting - the estimated delivery date is already somewhat q4 perhaps or later. - So what- I will not sell mine before the Grenadier is at home. Currently thinking not to sell the Disco but keep it too. Will get more road tyres again and use it as a pure on road.
So as I am intending to use the Grenadier more utilitarian even as a fieldmaster - I am not an overlander and I will not make any plans what to do with it until it is in my possession. patience is rather "natural habit". - It takes quite a lot to get me frustrated - otherwise I couldn't do my job.

And - let's face it - the longer we wait, the more time for IG to address any issues....

 

[LC0013]

When you take 2 years out due to covid and other economic BS then the journey is not that long. Still even at 6 years it is worth the wait.

 

[YellowLab]

When you take 2 years out due to covid and other economic BS then the journey is not that long. Still even at 6 years it is worth the wait.

Would those be two dog years?

 

[LC0013]

Would those be two dog years?

They felt like dog years...

 

[klarie]

And - let's face it - the longer we wait, the more time for IG to address any issues....

Indeed. - In the past I was a long time Mercedes Benz owner. Many people consider Mercedes as the quality car brand.
I began as an A class owner ( Moose) .. with a bunch of issues, A vaneo - A class based van with sliding rear doors, many issues. A C class .. fewer issues, An E class, some issues (A/C leaking) - rear differential leaks), GLK technically no issues but the seats were poor.. virtually dissolved surface. Were replaced during warranty.. (alcantara). Normally I never buy 1st generation vehicles. Grenadier is indeed an exception, but I pushed the order out as far as possible before they issued a price rise. Simply I hope the building team gained some experience and some issues will be resolved until I get mine. (and a few new ones will be introduced)

 

[YellowLab]

Indeed. - In the past I was a long time Mercedes Benz owner. Many people consider Mercedes as the quality car brand.
I began as an A class owner ( Moose) .. with a bunch of issues, A vaneo - A class based van with sliding rear doors, many issues. A C class .. fewer issues, An E class, some issues (A/C leaking) - rear differential leaks), GLK technically no issues but the seats were poor.. virtually dissolved surface. Were replaced during warranty.. (alcantara). Normally I never buy 1st generation vehicles. Grenadier is indeed an exception, but I pushed the order out as far as possible before they issued a price rise. Simply I hope the building team gained some experience and some issues will be resolved until I get mine. (and a few new ones will be introduced)

I think that is the right strategy. I've been hooked on this vehicle for a while and reserved mine on day 1. It will be like Christmas when it arrives (literally and figuratively). The deal breaker for me though will end up being that if they still have issues and the only location for me is a 2 hour trip to the one dealer for service. Then it will be time to look at alternatives like a Range Rover or the that new Lexus Overland. Different vehicles - but similar applications.

 

[YellowLab]

Indeed. - In the past I was a long time Mercedes Benz owner. Many people consider Mercedes as the quality car brand.
I began as an A class owner ( Moose) .. with a bunch of issues, A vaneo - A class based van with sliding rear doors, many issues. A C class .. fewer issues, An E class, some issues (A/C leaking) - rear differential leaks), GLK technically no issues but the seats were poor.. virtually dissolved surface. Were replaced during warranty.. (alcantara). Normally I never buy 1st generation vehicles. Grenadier is indeed an exception, but I pushed the order out as far as possible before they issued a price rise. Simply I hope the building team gained some experience and some issues will be resolved until I get mine. (and a few new ones will be introduced)

I've had mainly BMW and Porsche over the last 20 years. Have never been very impressed by BMW's V-8's - more problems with oil leaks and bad seals. Just out of warranty one had the engine fail and to be pulled and rebuilt. The X5 Diesel's have been fairly bullet proof beyond a Bosch fuel pump that failed and blew a fine layer of metal plating throughout the fuel system, but was fully covered, and minor one off things. The Porsche's have been beyond bullet proof. Lots of tire replacements and breaks (breaks biased toward stopping versus long life) - other than scheduled maintenance I've maybe replaced windshield wipers.

I'm glad IG sourced proven parts/assemblies - I'd imagine they will shake out the gremlins with a few software upgrades.

 

[DCPU]

And - let's face it - the longer we wait, the more time for IG to address any issues....

Address initial issues, but new ones will always crop up. Vehicle design never stands still, new parts, processes and materials are always being introduced.

MB are this week addressing a G Wagon issue going back to 2007 ~ that's over 16 years...a long time to wait for issues to be resolved...

 

[DCPU]

Indeed. - In the past I was a long time Mercedes Benz owner. Many people consider Mercedes as the quality car brand.

7 recalls in the US on a 2021 MB G Wagon...