1924 stuck in Baltimore

[Jason G]

Ordered my 1924 on June 26,2024.
The dealership says it’s a matter of days before it arrives. Has anybody taken delivery of specifically the 1924 edition?

 

[skibum35]

Some guy in Denver picked up his 1924 a couple weeks ago. I ordered one last July but will not be buying unless the workshop manual is released..........

 

[Dokatd]

Some guy in Denver picked up his 1924 a couple weeks ago. I ordered one last July but will not be buying unless the workshop manual is released..........

Good luck with that. I'd say if that's your prerequisite then you may never own a Grenadier. It's a sad state of affairs I agree.

 

[Trialmaster]

Why is the workshop manual a show stopper? Do Toyota or Land Rover supply workshop manuals?

 

[Brock63]

usually....someone can get copy out and sent to a printer service to make available for download. I have seen it with motorcycles and bunch of stuff...but rarely released in early years as is ALWAYS CHANGING with updates, edits, etc. Everything looks pretty straight up underneath for links, sway bars, axles, brakes, springs, body mounts, etc. Most that is left is electronic or part of BMW drivetrain.... As members work and reapir and upgrade....a lot of that stuff can be manifested here. We used to do that on the IH8MUD site...had technical sections that listed cross referenced parts and OEM part numbers...sources to buy...torque values, work arounds, field expedient fixes, etc. Amazing what an invested community can figure out and do on their own. If this community grows and is as invested by hard core offroaders and innovators like on IH8MUD....then wont be a problem. Especially if admins save and pin HOW TO DO IT posts in a place that everyone can get access and find in logical manner.

Shop manual least of problems to be honest. The lack of competition in aftermarket parts and the subsequent sky high prices for some of this stuff is bothering me more....LOL

 

[anand]

I have seen it with motorcycles and bunch of stuff...but rarely released in early years as is ALWAYS CHANGING with updates, edits, etc.

Given the fact that there are MY23, MY24.1, MY24.2, MY24.3, and MY25 vehicles that all have differences (non mechanical), this could certainly be a reason as to delay the manual....

 

[skibum35]

The real show stopper for me is not being able to reset the service light; seems to me they are "built to go to dealer" instead of "built for purpose"......and the dealer is far.

I will stick with my NAS D90 for now.

 

[Cheshire cat]

Thank God I ignored all the show stoppers and just put my money down. Means the last couple of years motoring have been a blast.

 

[NQ94]

Why is the workshop manual a show stopper? Do Toyota or Land Rover supply workshop manuals?

Toyota doesn't supply manuals with a car but there is access.In Australia for Toyota you just have to pay the daily, weekly or yearly fee and you can access any manual for any version of their products. This is a selling point for self maintaining fleets.
With only one model Ineos could very easily use the same method. With most manuals pushing 7 to 10k pages now a condensed version would be adequate for most owners that do their own maintenance.

 

[Clark Kent]

Toyota doesn't supply manuals with a car but there is access.In Australia for Toyota you just have to pay the daily, weekly or yearly fee and you can access any manual for any version of their products. This is a selling point for self maintaining fleets.
With only one model Ineos could very easily use the same method. With most manuals pushing 7 to 10k pages now a condensed version would be adequate for most owners that do their own maintenance.

This.

A subscriber or pay-per-view model would deliver on the commitment that IA made. IA never said access would be free and they don't even need to make it cheap. Heck, it's likely to be profitable if the outrage interest expressed through this forum is any measure of demand.

Justin Hocevar (MD Ineos Australia) previously explained to a Brisbane audience that providing public access to online workshop documentation (there are no printed manuals) is complex, but also made difficult because of the need to present accurate information per VIN. Data applicability (selectivity) already applies to the information presented to IA, dealer and agent employees so I'm not convinced that is a big part of the problem. Anyone who has worked around metadata will know that it's not difficult to code a data object with identifier information (I have SCORM and AECMA S1000d coding in my background).

For me as a owner (and a qualified mechanic), I'd be happy if IA tagged a subset of field grade data that covers the typical service and repair scenarios able to be addressed in the field given access to data, spares, consumables, tooling and expertise. Deeper repair data, and potentially sensitive OEM IP, remains restricted to IA employees, dealers and agents.

IA could do another data slice to open up a body repair and spares tier for panel shops. No pricing just valid descriptors and VIN-specific part numbers to list on a quote. That would benefit all parties in the repair management chain.

Let's see what Lynn Calder says about workshop manuals in her response to @Tom D's email sent to the IA leadership team. Hopefully Tom has opened a dialog that can be built on.

 

[MattA]

My independent Land Rover mechanic has full access to all service manuals and is able to reset and update all electrical components
Some make all kinds of excuses for Ineos…

 

[MattA]

Why is the workshop manual a show stopper? Do Toyota or Land Rover supply workshop manuals?

Yes they do , as do pretty much all manufacturers

 

[Clark Kent]

Yes they do , as do pretty much all manufacturers

Please provide some current examples of those manufacturers @MattA.
I'm not playing semantics but 'supply' is not the same as 'provide access'. Apparently you agree with @NQ94's post above that Toyota don't supply manuals but then you say above that they do. I'm confused. Please do clarify which manufacturers supply workshop manuals.

On your point about your independent LR guy: The Australian motor vehicle right to repair scheme (MVIS 2022) is for passenger and light goods vehicles. The Grenadier and Quartermaster are NB1 medium goods vehicles. That extra 50kg GVM (3550kg) makes a difference to LCT, ANCAP and MVIS. As far as I can interpret, correct me if I'm wrong, IA have no obligation to comply with the MVIS 2022.
Category aside; the MVIS covers the motor vehicle repair industry including your LR guy, plus associated registered training organisations but not end users.

 

[NQ94]

Please provide some current examples of those manufacturers @MattA.
I'm not playing semantics but 'supply' is not the same as 'provide access'. Apparently you agree with @NQ94's post above that Toyota don't supply manuals but then you say above that they do. I'm confused. Please do clarify which manufacturers supply workshop manuals.

On your point about your independent LR guy: The Australian motor vehicle right to repair scheme (MVIS 2022) is for passenger and light goods vehicles. The Grenadier and Quartermaster are NB1 medium goods vehicles. That extra 50kg GVM (3550kg) makes a difference to LCT, ANCAP and MVIS. As far as I can interpret, correct me if I'm wrong, IA have no obligation to comply with the MVIS 2022.
Category aside; the MVIS covers the motor vehicle repair industry including your LR guy, plus associated registered training organisations but not end users.

The worse part about MVIS you have to be confirmed as a mechanical business or a training provider through an ABN. This still locks out any DIY or persons interested in vehicles.

 

[Clark Kent]

The worse part about MVIS you have to be confirmed as a mechanical business or a training provider through an ABN. This still locks out any DIY or persons interested in vehicles.

Yes there are a few hurdles to clear. An ABN is easy enough to obtain but that alone doesn't prequalify you to use the MVIS. You need to also be working in the industry as you say.

 

[MattA]

I never stated Toyota don’t make manuals available because they in fact do.
Any other manufacturer service is available through pretty much all workshops.
All but Ineos can have service reminders reset in any workshop
On a touring trip with friends a year ago they had issues with their 200 LC, no TC, ABS etc. Within 24 hours I had an electronic copy of the full system to fault find, ended up a broken wire on the LH front ABS sensor.
Is a full system breakdown available from Ineos to anyone or any workshop ?

 

[DaveB]

Some guy in Denver picked up his 1924 a couple weeks ago. I ordered one last July but will not be buying unless the workshop manual is released..........

So you are going to base your purchasing and ownership decision on the availability of a workshop manual, which we all know won't be available anytime soon.
We hope but secretly we all know Santa and the Easter Bunny aren't real.

Sounds more like you have changed your mind on the purchase and have an excuse ready for the day.

 

[DaveB]

usually....someone can get copy out and sent to a printer service to make available for download. I have seen it with motorcycles and bunch of stuff...but rarely released in early years as is ALWAYS CHANGING with updates, edits, etc. Everything looks pretty straight up underneath for links, sway bars, axles, brakes, springs, body mounts, etc. Most that is left is electronic or part of BMW drivetrain.... As members work and reapir and upgrade....a lot of that stuff can be manifested here. We used to do that on the IH8MUD site...had technical sections that listed cross referenced parts and OEM part numbers...sources to buy...torque values, work arounds, field expedient fixes, etc. Amazing what an invested community can figure out and do on their own. If this community grows and is as invested by hard core offroaders and innovators like on IH8MUD....then wont be a problem. Especially if admins save and pin HOW TO DO IT posts in a place that everyone can get access and find in logical manner.

Shop manual least of problems to be honest. The lack of competition in aftermarket parts and the subsequent sky high prices for some of this stuff is bothering me more....LOL

This was the manual that Ineos stupidly promised 3 years ago.
It wasn't a printed or pdf manual.
To use it you need CAD(I assume)
Not surprised it hasn't happenned.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1c7QlNDylw

 

[Clark Kent]

I never stated Toyota don’t make manuals available because they in fact do.
Any other manufacturer service is available through pretty much all workshops.
All but Ineos can have service reminders reset in any workshop
On a touring trip with friends a year ago they had issues with their 200 LC, no TC, ABS etc. Within 24 hours I had an electronic copy of the full system to fault find, ended up a Brocken wire on the LH front ABS sensor.
Is a full system breakdown available from Ineos to anyone or any workshop ?

Please review your posts above.
NQ94: They don't supply manuals they provide access...
MattA:
I interpret that your -like- reaction as agreement. Not true?

Landmann: Do Toyota or LR supply workshop manuals?
MattA: Yes they do as do pretty much all manufacturers.

My question remains: Which manufacturers do supply manuals? I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I need to change brands.

You didn't state how you obtained a copy of the LC200 tech data. The IA workshop imagery I have seen posted on here is interactive and web delivered. That's not something that can be downloaded easily but pages and topics can be printed or pdf'd and sent. We've seen that several times where they got shared on here. IA have never said they won't support end users and they have demonstrated this many times. I think it's clear they have needed to step back from their pipe dream of pushing the workshop manual onto the infotainment screen. That was always some marketeer pulling too hard on the peace pipe. They probably got a kicking over it but the Koolaid was handed out and we all had a chug.

IA have never categorically said they will never deliver on their commitment. Some have expressed opinions it won't happen. They may yet be proven right but until IA respond with a yay or nay the action remains open. It's up to the user community to hold IA to account if they do back out.

 

[DaveB]

Please review your posts above.
NQ94: They don't supply manuals they provide access...
MattA:
I interpret that your -like- reaction as agreement. Not true?

Landmann: Do Toyota or LR supply workshop manuals?
MattA: Yes they do as do pretty much all manufacturers.

My question remains: Which manufacturers do supply manuals? I'm genuinely curious. Maybe I need to change brands.

You didn't state how you obtained a copy of the LC200 tech data. The IA workshop imagery I have seen posted on here is interactive and web delivered. That's not something that can be downloaded easily but pages and topics can be printed or pdf'd and sent. We've seen that several times where they got shared on here. IA have never said they won't support end users and they have demonstrated this many times. I think it's clear they have needed to step back from their pipe dream of pushing the workshop manual onto the infotainment screen. That was always some marketeer pulling too hard on the peace pipe. They probably got a kicking over it but the Koolaid was handed out and we all had a chug.

IA have never categorically said they will never deliver on their commitment. Some have expressed opinions it won't happen. They may yet be proven right but until IA respond with a yay or nay the action remains open. It's up to the user community to hold IA to account if they do back out.

I agree.
In the interview between Justin Hocevar and Robert Pepper last year Justin stated he was expecting it in Q3 2024.
That was posted about 11 months ago so I assume filmed March or April last year
So as we are in Australia that would be July, August September that he was expecting it.
He also stated that it would be a subscription service not a free item.

Clearly that didn't happen.
Clearly also he genuinely expected it to. He strikes me as being an honest person.