Dual double cardan joint 1350 front driveshaft and factory CV discussion.

bradb622 · Aug 28, 2024

I truly appreciate this forum. Sorry to hear from those who experienced the drive shaft issues and hope a resolution is found. I’m having my lift undone for now. It’s not something I want to be worrying about on the trail.

Tinerfeño · Aug 28, 2024

I have lifted several own cars and during my 20 years of work with Land Rovers many cars of my customers (with both solid and independent suspension axles). I would like to add some comments:

Manufacturer is not interested in suspension or body lifting projects and they do not have any responsibility of the results of these.
I have always warned customers of the disadvantages: Increased wear of drive components, increased air resistance -> increased fuel consumption, and reduced highway stability due to higher center of gravity. And if at the same time tyre diameter is increased, reduced performance (acceleration and possibly top speed).
Independent suspension is typically much worse than solid axles due to short drive shafts (Am. half shafts).

Regarding case IG I have not actually seen any lifted vehicle but it is possible that original prop shafts (Am. drive shafts) don't have much reserve strength. But where in this axle/propshaft construction is the elongation reserve for suspension travel (traditional sliding joint)? Is it possible that this is not enough for the lifted vehicles and causes these damages? If so, this could be solved with additional adjustiing plate between flanges on one end of prop shaft.

NomadJS · Aug 28, 2024

Johnp123 said:
Yes... Haven't replaced it the second time yet. Trying to figure out my options and if I just need to go back to the original springs.
Have a call into Eibach. Reached out to a couple places about custom shaft. So far, Tom Woods can't.

What did Tom Woods say? I have had them on a older FJ and they are awesome!

TD5-90 · Aug 28, 2024

Tinerfeño said:
... If so, this could be solved with additional adjustiing plate between flanges on one end of prop shaft.

In the Gren there are no flanges at the drive shaft's ends. So no possibility to increase the length here. Cutting & welding a piece of pipe in would work, I wonder if this is not a standard work for shaft repair shops: Cutting out a failed CJ & welding in a new one seems to be a similar job, and this is obviously done regularly.

If the "adjusting plate" would be fitted to the diff side, this would help with length, but furter increase operation angle of the joint. Seems not a good idea...

Clark Kent · Aug 28, 2024

@Tinerfeño The driveshaft has a slip joint instead of a slip yoke. Pic.

I'm unable to do the work at present (injured), but I would be interested to know the maximum and minimum uninstalled driveshaft lengths at full extension and compression, and how that compares to the flange to flange distance between the transfer case and pinion flange at full suspension droop and compression. @Bodhi’s Grenadier will know this from his development work on the double DC to double DC driveshaft featured above.

Of course Magna will have addressed this during driveline design but the reserve length, i.e. how far off is the shaft from bottoming out during extension and compression on standard suspension, would be interesting to know.

NQ94 · Aug 28, 2024

Has there been a full evaluation of the vehicle laden and unladen driveline working angles and lengths and the appropriate calculations including propeller/drive shaft working speeds?
A drive shaft company will make a shaft to suit anyone's needs but it still doesn't mean the component will have the long term durability and possibly cause other issues within the powertrain. A centre supported double cardan joint at each end may be one solution, but it is a heavy rotating mass that wears and at high working angles like any universal joint will wear quicker, will require more maintenance and have an increasing resonance as it wears. The other item not mentioned is the total voiding of the drive line warranty. Premature excessive wear to splines and gears in transmissions can be caused by frequencies induced into the transmission caused by poor driveline angles and excessively heavy shafts at speed combined with low engine speed in overdrive.

Tazzieman · Aug 28, 2024

Many years ago an old Toyota 4wd guy told me if you drive hard on rocks, you will break things, starting with your wallet!

Clark Kent · Aug 28, 2024

NQ94 said:
Has there been a full evaluation of the vehicle laden and unladen driveline working angles and lengths and the appropriate calculations including propeller/drive shaft working speeds?

NQ94 said:
A drive shaft company will make a shaft to suit anyone's needs but it still doesn't mean the component will have the long term durability and possibly cause other issues within the powertrain. A centre supported double cardan joint at each end may be one solution, but it is a heavy rotating mass that wears and at high working angles like any universal joint will wear quicker, will require more maintenance and have an increasing resonance as it wears. The other item not mentioned is the total voiding of the drive line warranty. Premature excessive wear to splines and gears in transmissions can be caused by frequencies induced into the transmission caused by poor driveline angles and excessively heavy shafts at speed combined with low engine speed in overdrive.

For the first question, presumably Magna did this, or at least validated Dana's work. If the count of failed shafts in unmodified vehicles has got IA's attention then I expect they will be taking another look.

For resonance, Bodhi Grenadier reported resonance at 65-70mph in part 2 of this video while road testing his prototype DDC driveshaft. 7th gear is ok. 8th gear has resonance. If this site is correct then 7th and 8th are both overdrives in the 8HP76 and 8HP50.

He suggests the standard driveshaft should be adequate for typical use at standard suspension height, albeit less than optimal due to the opposing angles of the transfer case and front diff nose.

Logsplitter · Aug 28, 2024

Well I certainly won’t be changing to an aftermarket driveshaft whilst the vehicle is under warranty as I wouldn’t want to void that in my view it’s an Ineos problem to get it sorted. My prop shaft failed at the CV joint doing about 35mph on a tar road, plus my vehicle has had no modifications! Surely Ineos must be poring over this one because as I’ve said before this could be catastrophic at speed or in a very remote location.
I’ve sent all my prop shaft failure photos and photos of prop shafts on standard and raised suspension Grenadiers to a friend who’s a senior lecturer at the BMW training college in the UK and he along with his colleagues have been poring over these photos and discussing the issues. And the consensus seems to be the angle the prop shaft is running through is the issue as the joint has limited movement before hitting its casing.

Zimm · Aug 28, 2024

Logsplitter said:
So having had my prop shaft fail at the joint that I now know is a cv joint. I’m only acquainted with UJ’s
Why have Ineos gone with a CV joint on the prop shafts when from what I can gather on the internet they are not as robust as UJ ‘s . Do any other large 4x4’s go with CV joints on the prop shafts.
What’s the consensus regarding whether the failed joint is just an isolated bad joint or whether it just ain’t up to the job as someone mentioned in another thread. Interested to know your thoughts.
On the plus side we’ve all got five years warranty to work out whether the CV joints are a weak point so plenty of time to put lots of miles on the Grenadier and test it out.

NVH for the consumer. The civilian 463 gwagons had a cv shaft between the divorced t case and transmission, that was a nightmare to swap when it would wear as it was impossible to service, and the military 461’s had U joints. Imperceptible in practice, but, on German engineer paper necessary for smooth operation no matter the service nightmare.

Zimm · Aug 28, 2024

shiv.nandak said:
Dang, I guess I need to put any lift plans on hold.. I don't have free time to be dealing with drivetrain issues.

To dig deeper, I think It’s the front leveling springs that are the major culprit. Stick to the flat 30mm and my guess street driving will be fine, with a shortened boot life.

Tinerfeño · Aug 28, 2024

TD5-90 said:
In the Gren there are no flanges at the drive shaft's ends. So no possibility to increase the length here.

The CV joint is bolted to transfer box and differential unit. If this is not called flange, what it is?

Tinerfeño · Aug 28, 2024

Clark Kent said:
FIf this site is correct then 7th and 8th are both overdrives in the 8HP76 and 8HP50.

... due to the opposing angles of the transfer case and front diff nose.

The automatic gearbox is ZF 8HP70, or am I wrong?

Land Rover has used standard U-joints in the front propshaft which has similar geometry. The joints are not aligned but diff flange has 45° advance to transfer box flange.

Shroomy · Aug 28, 2024

So after I got off of work yesterday I figured I should give the CV boot an inspection on the front drive shaft after reading though this thread. This is what I found now after only driving about 200 miles since I installed the Eibach lift Part # E30-34-001-06-22 and 35"/12.5/R17 Toyo tires. Caster settings were adjusted down to 1.5degrees as recommended from the 2 nominal, but this still wasn't enough apparently to prevent CV boot failure. See pictures below

Johnp123 · Aug 28, 2024

NomadJS said:
What did Tom Woods say? I have had them on a older FJ and they are awesome!

They didn't want to fabricate custom adapters.

Phred · Aug 28, 2024

shiv.nandak said:
Dang, I guess I need to put any lift plans on hold.. I don't have free time to be dealing with drivetrain issues.

I foresee “kits” that include new shafts in the future…

Johnp123 · Aug 28, 2024

Shroomy said:
How long has this 2nd shaft been installed miles? any extreme off-roading to have the boots ripped that bad? Curious as I have only had my lift and tires put on 2 weeks now with about 200 road miles.

4 days of moderate to light offloading. ~400mi or so.

I am going back to stock!

bamanuke · Aug 28, 2024

Shroomy said:
So after I got off of work yesterday I figured I should give the CV boot an inspection on the front drive shaft after reading though this thread. This is what I found now after only driving about 200 miles since I installed the Eibach lift Part # E30-34-001-06-22 and 35"/12.5/R17 Toyo tires. Caster settings were adjusted down to 1.5degrees as recommended from the 2 nominal, but this still wasn't enough apparently to prevent CV boot failure. See pictures belowView attachment 7868371 View attachment 7868372 View attachment 7868373 View attachment 7868374

you took much better pictures than I did. Any chance that you can send them to Eibach? The ones that I sent them (per their request) were pretty poor.

Mountain4x4 · Aug 28, 2024

Damn, looks like we all need a solution soon. Wish the engineers had allowed for a bit more travel with the design.

Migs · Aug 28, 2024

damn indeed. just got my eibach springs on and have probably only driven 100 miles or so. will check on mine when i'm back tomorrow from a work trip.

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