Turning radius improvement with simple bolt-stop mod?

MileHigh · Aug 15, 2024

I’ve seen a couple of threads about modifying the bolt stop to reduce the turning radius. It seems some of them are a couple of years old. I found a recent one on Facebook group and he says he has used it for some time.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1028393128694228

View: https://www.facebook.com/jbrindell/videos/1028393128694228/?idorvanity=646932539965726

Anyone done the mod and got some miles on it? Any official word on it? Kind of reminds me of the caster mod.

Why would Ineos hobble the IG with the turning radius if it were that simple to ‘fix’? Stability at speed I don’t think is the issue- it still would have a typical SUV turning radius, not a ‘small’ one?

To me the two issues would be
-wear on the drive shafts?
-The brake lines or other lines not being long enough at full lock and full suspension travel?

Heck, even half a mod would be interesting. On the turning radius, with standard gear, does anyone else’s feel like you turn as much as you can, and then when you start moving, you can turn tighter?

Any new thoughts or people reporting on long term testing?

anand · Aug 15, 2024

My concern with this would be being at full lock (the "new" full lock), with a bunch of load on the drivetrain and snapping an axle shaft...

There has to be a reason it was engineered to a certain degree and not beyond it.

I know John wheels his Grenadier, but one test vehicle is a bit of a small sample size with this much to risk. All my personal opinion

Tazzieman · Aug 15, 2024

From this previous post :

Dealer: "The procedure involves working against the steering damper and at the edge of the servo pump. The additional force exerted puts more strain on various components than the manufacturer intended. Whether these components will be damaged in the long term I cannot judge. Out of sheer caution, I would not use this measure permanently and, as you say, only in an emergency."

Ineos: "Our team has thoroughly inspected a vehicle and we strongly advise against performing this operation. It is important to allow the steering to reach its stop point naturally and avoid pulling on the steering wheel. During the inspection, our team observed signs of stress on the steering components caused by the additional load exerted when forcing the steering."

Lars · Aug 15, 2024

Tazzieman said:
From this previous post :

Dealer: "The procedure involves working against the steering damper and at the edge of the servo pump. The additional force exerted puts more strain on various components than the manufacturer intended. Whether these components will be damaged in the long term I cannot judge. Out of sheer caution, I would not use this measure permanently and, as you say, only in an emergency."

Ineos: "Our team has thoroughly inspected a vehicle and we strongly advise against performing this operation. It is important to allow the steering to reach its stop point naturally and avoid pulling on the steering wheel. During the inspection, our team observed signs of stress on the steering components caused by the additional load exerted when forcing the steering."

OK Would you really expect a dealer or Inoes say anything else? They will be against any modification not done by them. Did Ineos set up the stops for a reason? I'm sure they did, but we will never know, and all this handwringing is nuts. First, watch the video from Agile Offroad, and the if you want to do it...do it out and check for clearance/binding issues.
I would be a little concerned that the CV joint (the axle should be fine) couldn't take the angle under extreme load especially with the front locker engaged, but anyone who has used a front locker should know to never do that. I've seen LR's and Toyotas blow out their CV's doing that. I'm not worried about low speed, low power situations where you could use a 2 meter tighter turning radius, like in a parking lot or a tight switch-back. Power steering issues...it's probably never good to crank the steering wheel all the way to the stop and keeping it there, so don't do that.
I think I'll give it a try and let you know.

gemhawkz · Aug 15, 2024

I did the mod and it’s working great for me huge improvement in turning radius no new noises or scraping

Tazzieman · Aug 15, 2024

Lars said:
OK Would you really expect a dealer or Inoes say anything else? They will be against any modification not done by them. Did Ineos set up the stops for a reason? I'm sure they did, but we will never know, and all this handwringing is nuts. First, watch the video from Agile Offroad, and the if you want to do it...do it out and check for clearance/binding issues.
I would be a little concerned that the CV joint (the axle should be fine) couldn't take the angle under extreme load especially with the front locker engaged, but anyone who has used a front locker should know to never do that. I've seen LR's and Toyotas blow out their CV's doing that. I'm not worried about low speed, low power situations where you could use a 2 meter tighter turning radius, like in a parking lot or a tight switch-back. Power steering issues...it's probably never good to crank the steering wheel all the way to the stop and keeping it there, so don't do that.
I think I'll give it a try and let you know.

Yes , let us know , but don't expect us to follow suit!
Ineos' advice is what keeps my warranty intact.

DenisM · Aug 15, 2024

Lars said:
OK Would you really expect a dealer or Inoes say anything else? They will be against any modification not done by them. Did Ineos set up the stops for a reason? I'm sure they did, but we will never know, and all this handwringing is nuts. First, watch the video from Agile Offroad, and the if you want to do it...do it out and check for clearance/binding issues.
I would be a little concerned that the CV joint (the axle should be fine) couldn't take the angle under extreme load especially with the front locker engaged, but anyone who has used a front locker should know to never do that. I've seen LR's and Toyotas blow out their CV's doing that. I'm not worried about low speed, low power situations where you could use a 2 meter tighter turning radius, like in a parking lot or a tight switch-back. Power steering issues...it's probably never good to crank the steering wheel all the way to the stop and keeping it there, so don't do that.
I think I'll give it a try and let you know.

The Grenadier is not equipped with CV joints on the front axle. Instead, it has a double Cardan setup on each side. Since I was not privy to the design constraints Ineos engineers considered, including their basic brief to design with a view to optimise reliability / longevity, I'll leave well alone. Frankly, a little forethought goes a long way when piloting the Grenadier!

MileHigh · Aug 15, 2024

DenisM said:
The Grenadier is not equipped with CV joints on the front axle. Instead, it has a double Cardan setup on each side. Since I was not privy to the design constraints Ineos engineers considered, including their basic brief to design with a view to optimise reliability / longevity, I'll leave well alone. Frankly, a little forethought goes a long way when piloting the Grenadier!

I was in a parking cha-cha line that had a pretty severe double S turn in it, and the lady behind me was riding my bumper. I definitely planned ahead and didn’t have to do any reversing.

Considering how many people bitch about the turning radius, I can’t see Ineos not maxing out the performance. It had to come up in testing. I guess we’ll see if they change it on future models.

What’s the worst that can happen? The power steering pump that squeals like a pig, squeals like a pig.

On turning hard, either the stops are there for a reason or not. You can’t put that kind of turn radius on a vehicle and then not expect people not to crank it- which might be why the stops are where they are?

Sounds like we need triple Cardins…

landmannnn · Aug 15, 2024

I guess this might turn tighter...

Quartermaster · Aug 15, 2024

DenisM said:
The Grenadier is not equipped with CV joints on the front axle. Instead, it has a double Cardan setup on each side. Since I was not privy to the design constraints Ineos engineers considered, including their basic brief to design with a view to optimise reliability / longevity, I'll leave well alone. Frankly, a little forethought goes a long way when piloting the Grenadier!

My Jeep Wrangler JK 4-door had single cardans and a smaller turning cicle. So the double cardans should not be the problem.

MileHigh · Aug 15, 2024

Quartermaster said:
My Jeep Wrangler JK 4-door had single cardans and a smaller turning cicle. So the double cardans should not be the problem.

Wasn’t full time 4WD unless it was a 392, IIRC.

That would be in interesting experiment. I have a Sahara JL and compare the 2hi and 4hi turning radius to the IG. I had a Cadillac Escalade (2015) and it didn’t like tight turns, in 4HI, or even 4 automatic IIRC.

anand · Aug 15, 2024

MileHigh said:
That would be in interesting experiment. I have a Sahara JL and compare the 2hi and 4hi turning radius to the IG. I had a Cadillac Escalade (2015) and it didn’t like tight turns, in 4HI, or even 4 automatic IIRC.

a JL or Escalade in 4Hi would be equivalent to us having our center diff locked.

We did a test almost 2 years ago with the very early PTO2s stateside of turning circle changes between center diff unlocked, locked, center + rear locked, and then center + front + rear locked. The difference was staggering as you get further down that list

Quartermaster · Aug 15, 2024

MileHigh said:
Wasn’t full time 4WD unless it was a 392, IIRC.

That would be in interesting experiment. I have a Sahara JL and compare the 2hi and 4hi turning radius to the IG. I had a Cadillac Escalade (2015) and it didn’t like tight turns, in 4HI, or even 4 automatic IIRC.

It was parttime 4wd. But half of the angle for each u-joint would be more important, i would think. At least in terms of free motion.

MileHigh · Aug 16, 2024

anand said:
a JL or Escalade in 4Hi would be equivalent to us having our center diff locked.

We did a test almost 2 years ago with the very early PTO2s stateside of turning circle changes between center diff unlocked, locked, center + rear locked, and then center + front + rear locked. The difference was staggering as you get further down that list

That is interesting on the center differential. I guess I could see as you go into a turn how the front and rears would be rotating a different speeds, but once in a constant circle, the front and rear should be making the same size circles,. Or does the steering input angleChange the relative speeds of the front and rear.

grnamin · Aug 17, 2024

John from Agile does the steering stop mod on the trail...

Asnes · Aug 26, 2024

I wouldn’t do it. Time will tell. I’m seeing here on the forum and on Facebook that some owners are starting to have drive shaft CV joint and pinion bearing issues (and complete assembly failures) with stock drive shafts paired with eibach +2.5” springs.….. attack angle outside of engineering tolerances. The engineers at magna steyr are not morons. There is a reason those set screws are there. Proceed with caution and deep pockets.

Tazzieman · Aug 26, 2024

Asnes said:
I wouldn’t do it. Time will tell. I’m seeing here on the forum and on Facebook that some owners are starting to have drive shaft CV joint and pinion bearing issues (and complete assembly failures) with stock drive shafts paired with eibach +2.5” springs.….. attack angle outside of engineering tolerances. The engineers at magna steyr are not morons. There is a reason those set screws are there. Proceed with caution and deep pockets.

I haven't photographed mine, but this was a post from last year ; see photos in post #15 for the stock vehicle propshaft angle.
No way am I getting a lift ... at least until the beta testers have run it for a year or 2

Lars · Sep 12, 2024

As a follow-up to a previous post of mine where I was willing to adjust the steering stops on the axle to get a little better turning radius...

Well I don't think the poor turning radius has anything to do with the steering stops; contrary to what others seem to say.

I tested my IG using the Offroad mode steering angle information. Before touching the stops I got 34 degrees with the left turn at full lock and 30 degrees with the right turn. According to info from Rok Dr's IG manual, table 10, nominal inner wheel steering angle should be 30 <CORRECTION> 33 degrees.

Removing the stops completely did not change the readings. Removing the steering stabilizer did not change the numbers. There is a always a gap between the stop bolt head and the axle stop of about 10mm even at full lock.
There must be something other than the physical stops limiting turning radius. Is the body control module doing it!!!??? Maybe something else in the steering set up?

I'm glad some have found an improvement, but I don't see any effect on my truck. Sad...

Kevin Mokracek · Oct 7, 2024

Just did this "mod" on my truck. I have a trip coming up that requires a few very tight turns on switchbacks that my Jeep Rubicon just barely made. I'll also be towing a small off road teardrop trailer so doing a ton of little adjustments just won't work. I'm hoping this adjustment will help me eek out the tight turns on the switchbacks and when I get home I will reset the stops to where the factory had them.

Dokatd · Oct 8, 2024

Lars said:
As a follow-up to a previous post of mine where I was willing to adjust the steering stops on the axle to get a little better turning radius...

Well I don't think the poor turning radius has anything to do with the steering stops; contrary to what others seem to say.

I tested my IG using the Offroad mode steering angle information. Before touching the stops I got 34 degrees with the left turn at full lock and 30 degrees with the right turn. According to info from Rok Dr's IG manual, table 10, nominal inner wheel steering angle should be 30 <CORRECTION> 33 degrees.

Removing the stops completely did not change the readings. Removing the steering stabilizer did not change the numbers. There is a always a gap between the stop bolt head and the axle stop of about 10mm even at full lock.
There must be something other than the physical stops limiting turning radius. Is the body control module doing it!!!??? Maybe something else in the steering set up?

I'm glad some have found an improvement, but I don't see any effect on my truck. Sad...

This is what I found as well. The stock setting for the stops doesn’t even make contact. I’m guessing the steering gear itself is the limit. I just haven’t bothered to investigate beyond that.

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