Some extra degrees in the steering resulting in a smaller turning circle

DenisM · Feb 21, 2024

Zimm said:
I don't understand how this is supposed to work if the the steering is hitting the stops. As I understand it, some people are adjusting the stops and tightening the circle, and in turn there's a debates as to if the cv's are going to grenade while locked. I'm leaning towards it being fine, especially now that I'm reading post 9, but, it's worth waiting and watching.

FWIW: The Grenadier doesn't have CV joints in the front axles. Double UJs (Cardan)joints are used instead.

Deekayy · Feb 21, 2024

Zimm said:
Who is negotiating, the dealership or Ineos? If Ineos, why not just use a wheel with 20mm negative offset instead of a spacer?

Hi Zimm,
thanks for your comment. The dealership is negotiating. In Germany it is necessary to have an official approval for accessories before you can sell or at least use them on cars. So if you intend to sell stuff which will modify cars in their structure you have to go through a formalized procedure. Which is what the dealership does. And yes, sure, you could use either spacers or just other wheels. The effect should be the same. The spacers make sense for those people who want to keep their wheels. You get a set of quality spacers for the price of a single wheel.
Best, David

Deekayy · Feb 21, 2024

Zimm said:
I don't understand how this is supposed to work if the the steering is hitting the stops. As I understand it, some people are adjusting the stops and tightening the circle, and in turn there's a debates as to if the cv's are going to grenade while locked. I'm leaning towards it being fine, especially now that I'm reading post 9, but, it's worth waiting and watching.

They explanation the sales guy was giving was indeed not very detailed. What I understood was that the stops can be adjusted but more space for the front wheels in the wheelshouse seems to be required. Which is why they go for the spacers before.

Deekayy · Feb 21, 2024

Cheshire cat said:
The question for me is: The 20 mm spacer as being discussed by Ineos? Or perhaps the 30 mm, just for that little bit extra. Eibach are producing both.

This might be another "German" thing. In Germany there is a rule (we got rules for everything, believe me), that the edge of the tire profile (not the sidewall) has to be inline with the wheel arches. And the Grenadier will accept another 20 mm to hit that limit. For 30 mm you might have to add something to the wheel arches to completely cover the tires.

Cheshire cat · Feb 21, 2024

Deekayy said:
This might be another "German" thing. In Germany there is a rule (we got rules for everything, believe me), that the edge of the tire profile (not the sidewall) has to be inline with the wheel arches. And the Grenadier will accept another 20 mm to hit that limit. For 30 mm you might have to add something to the wheel arches to completely cover the tires.

Also presuming that Ineos will be considering axle articulation and a 20mm offset not affecting it.

Cheshire cat · Feb 22, 2024

Just tried the forced wheel manoeuvre and it worked!
Turned the wheel hard to right. Waited for the pulse I feel when on full lock. Forced quite hard on the wheel (but not massively), and watched the steering degree move from 33 degrees to 40 degrees. Will continue to experiment and see if there is any improvement.

Zimm · Feb 22, 2024

Cheshire cat said:
Just tried the forced wheel manoeuvre and it worked!
Turned the wheel hard to right. Waited for the pulse I feel when on full lock. Forced quite hard on the wheel (but not massively), and watched the steering degree move from 33 degrees to 40 degrees. Will continue to experiment and see if there is any improvement.

Here's what has me disturbed about this discovery.

1) I find it hard to believe someone deliberately designed a system like this. We have to imagine problems in out heads for this method to have a reason.
2) Cranking steering at full lock has never been good for steering boxes.
3) No one is explaining as to how this is overriding the physical stops. What part exactly is this stressing? Where does this play come from when the pressure increases like this?

I'll just turn the stops in before I make this method SOP. Everyone is concerned about increasing the angle degree on the axle by moving factory setting out of spec, and yet this method somehow does just that, AND hammers the box.

Nyet for me.

Research question: Can someone turn the wheel to full lock without the excess pressure and go under and see if the assembly is actually hitting the stop? This whole thing has me wondering if the steering has hit the screw limit first and hard cranking on is stressing mounts until they move. After that crank on the wheel and see if someone can see what gives.

Cheshire cat · Feb 22, 2024

Zimm said:
Here's what has me disturbed about this discovery.

1) I find it hard to believe someone deliberately designed a system like this. We have to imagine problems in out heads for this method to have a reason.
2) Cranking steering at full lock has never been good for steering boxes.
3) No one is explaining as to how this is overriding the physical stops. What part exactly is this stressing? Where does this play come from when the pressure increases like this?

I'll just turn the stops in before I make this method SOP. Everyone is concerned about increasing the angle degree on the axle by moving factory setting out of spec, and yet this method somehow does just that, AND hammers the box.

Nyet for me.

Research question: Can someone turn the wheel to full lock without the excess pressure and go under and see if the assembly is actually hitting the stop? This whole thing has me wondering if the steering has hit the screw limit first and hard cranking on is stressing mounts until they move. After that crank on the wheel and see if someone can see what gives.

Not disagreeing with anything you say. It is however an interesting phenomena, the tip for which came from a couple of main dealers. When the weather improves, I will get underneath and take a look, unless someone beats me to it.

Deekayy · Feb 22, 2024

Thanks Zimm and Cheshire cat for your support and thoughts. That's really a strange thing. So far I have no final answer from Ineos, but at least they have forwarded my request to the internal team and promise to get back to me. I see them turning wheels and scratching heads...

Deekayy · Mar 4, 2024

Hi all, now I have at least a feedback from my dealership. This is what they say:
"The procedure involves working against the steering damper and at the edge of the servo pump. The additional force exerted puts more strain on various components than the manufacturer intended. Whether these components will be damaged in the long term I cannot judge. Out of sheer caution, I would not use this measure permanently and, as you say, only in an emergency."
Ineos has still not replied.
Have a good start to the new week, David.

Deekayy · Mar 4, 2024

Now, and here is the answer Ineos gave. All busy on Monday morning...
"Our team has thoroughly inspected a vehicle and we strongly advise against performing this operation. It is important to allow the steering to reach its stop point naturally and avoid pulling on the steering wheel. During the inspection, our team observed signs of stress on the steering components caused by the additional load exerted when forcing the steering."
At least kudos to the Ineos Team. They did not decide on paper but checked the procedure on an actual vehicle. I think one cannot expect more.
So it is now up to everyone of us to make our own decisions. Ineos clearly argues against the procedure and would certainly refuse any liability for damages. The dealers are more customer oriented and try to solve the customer's problem. Which way would you choose to go...?

Tazzieman · Mar 4, 2024

Deekayy said:
Now, and here is the answer Ineos gave. All busy on Monday morning...
"Our team has thoroughly inspected a vehicle and we strongly advise against performing this operation.
So it is now up to everyone of us to make our own decisions. Ineos clearly argues against the procedure and would certainly refuse any liability for damages. The dealers are more customer oriented and try to solve the customers problem. Which way would you choose to go...?

The one smart way

grnamin · Mar 4, 2024

Deekayy said:
Now, and here is the answer Ineos gave. All busy on Monday morning...
"Our team has thoroughly inspected a vehicle and we strongly advise against performing this operation. It is important to allow the steering to reach its stop point naturally and avoid pulling on the steering wheel. During the inspection, our team observed signs of stress on the steering components caused by the additional load exerted when forcing the steering."
At least kudos to the Ineos Team. They did not decide on paper but checked the procedure on an actual vehicle. I think one cannot expect more.
So it is now up to everyone of us to make our own decisions. Ineos clearly argues against the procedure and would certainly refuse any liability for damages. The dealers are more customer oriented and try to solve the customers problem. Which way would you choose to go...?

Tom109 · Mar 4, 2024

Cheshire cat said:
Not disagreeing with anything you say. It is however an interesting phenomena, the tip for which came from a couple of main dealers. When the weather improves, I will get underneath and take a look, unless someone beats me to it.

Just saying, I have fixed things dealers couldn’t. So the above logic does not hold.

Zimm · Mar 4, 2024

Looks like I get the Monday morning, "you're as dumb as you look" award.

Now, to make thru the rest of the week without saying something stupid.

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Some extra degrees in the steering resulting in a smaller turning circle

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