Ineos Grenadier - rejected

Lord Ripon USA · Feb 25, 2024

lightning said:
A lot of Grenadiers are being bought by enthusiasts, the kind of people who will cherish the vehicle and keep it long term.

Unlike (say) the new Defender that is in many cases being bought by consumers with no interest in cars, who will trade it for whatever the latest fashionable vehicle might be, when the PCP agreement ends.

Or those running it through a business on a lease, and just turning it over every couple years.
That used to be a tax free form of extra compensation.

bikesandguitars · Feb 26, 2024

Zimm said:
Fringe marks that are well beyond your third standard deviation in production % exist because of the cars that are used mainstream. They NEED the mass production oem suppliers that the big boys support, as evidenced by how many design compromises the gren has to accommodate key "expensive to design" systems as "off the shelf" as possible. As the mainstream shifts past ICE, fuel distribution networks shrink and OEM suppliers dry up.

1/2 the fuel stations doesn't mean your 4 dollar gas is inconvenient to find. It doesn't mean it's now 8 dollars gallon. To maintain profit margins on a logistically stretched commodity network, It'll be an inverse square'ish price hike. As far as finding parts 25+ years from now, there are a ton of high quality autos in the system that will be scrapped, and they will be available, but that doesn't make this car valuable, it makes it a jalopy.

Elon may be insane, and the chinese have caught him so he won't be the one ruling the world, but, he did see the end game and act boldly.

I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt it. My long term investments are aren't in an industry transitioning out, its in real estate. We are making more people, we aren't making more land. Put your money into there, or war, not into cars.

Given the fact that the Grenadier is sourced from well established vendors and many of the parts are used by other makers, most of the obsolescence problem has already been solved. But as a vintage LandCruiser and Airstream owner, I understand the dilemma of trying to find a door handle or a piece of interior trim for a vehicle that was last produced 50 years ago. However, technology has made that struggle exponentially easier than it was twenty-five years ago.

As a few others have suggested, EV’s are second (or third) cars for wealthy families in the US. By far, EV’s are sitting the longest on dealer lots. The scarcity and reliability of EV charging stations is well documented in our media. Gas prices in the U.S. are still, very much, a political football. The death of ICE’s has been greatly exaggerated. The transition to a primarily EV infrastructure in North America is still decades away.

I’ve also been a long term investor in both residential and commercial real estate. Fortunately, I’m in a very desirable part of the U.S. and our values have remained high since the mortgage crisis of 2008. However, we’ve endured everything from bankrupt tenants, Amazon’s effect on retail spaces, COVID’s effect on office spaces to rent controls, occupancy limits and short term rental restrictions enacted by City Council. And now, we have high interest rates and exploding property taxes pushing our prices down. There is no “sure thing”.

As for the rest of the equation on the ICE Grenadier, reliability will be the main component and, of course, we’ve come nowhere near the length of time necessary to form that particular opinion.

Lastly, I really enjoy driving my Grenadier. I also enjoy looking at my Grenadier and imagining the possibilities. We’re now planning entire vacations together

. So far, it’s been a great investment.

255/85 · Feb 26, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
Given the fact that the Grenadier is sourced from well established vendors and many of the parts are used by other makers, most of the obsolescence problem has already been solved. But as a vintage LandCruiser and Airstream owner, I understand the dilemma of trying to find a door handle or a piece of interior trim for a vehicle that was last produced 50 years ago. However, technology has made that struggle exponentially easier than it was twenty-five years ago.

Restoring a couple of my 20-25 year old vehicles two decades ago was a nightmare. Fun? Yes, but still a nightmare. The original manufacturer of each vehicle had largely stopped making replacement parts and the parts houses only sold a few high wear items (tail light lenses, window cranks, etc) or offered rebuilding services (brake calipers, starters, alternators, etc). If your vehicle hadn't been babied you were forced to scour junkyards or old farmer's fields for rusting hulks that you could liberate a few parts from. Tetanus or spider bite were constant fears.

Twenty-five years later there are more parts available for my early 70s pickup than ever before. I just purchased a brand new repopped component - a complex molded plastic dash cluster housing - that I have been searching for since I bought the truck in the late 1980s. They've just now been remade. I nursed my old one along with epoxy and bailing wire and zip ties having never found an original in good enough condition to bother with. I paid $40.00 for the new one. I would have paid 5X the price for a new one a few years back and may pick up a spare. Similar options are now available for my late 70s SWB 4X4.

My point is that we now have the potential to keep a vehicle on the road almost indefinitely. The internet, nearly useless 25 years ago, can coalesce like-minded enthusiasts (and the temporarily smitten) into self-perpetuating communities that align together to solve heretofore insurmountable problems. Cheap small-run manufacturing concerns will turn out just about anything that can be cobbled up in a CAD program and everyone knows someone with a 3D printer. We are no longer on a solo journey with our passions, scratching our head up under the dash or wandering dusty back roads in search of tiny mechanical treasures. If there's something you need or don't know how to fix on your vehicle, there's always a forum ready and willing to spell out umpteen ways of getting or going about it just a click away.

There is one caveat, though. The vehicle (or gizmo or gadget) must have the potential to deliver usability in balance with the pain endured to keep it functional. Some vehicles do this better than others. A 40 Series Toyota is worth it. A Toyota Tercel is not. From my perspective the Ineos Grenadier is a pretty safe bet. I'd lay odds that there will be a sizable dedicated cadre of Grenadier users twenty, thirty, even fifty years hence still running, rebuilding, and re-using these vehicles. I even expect this forum to, soon enough, become a vendor's showplace that will net @Stu_Barnes and his henchmen @Krabby and @anand more than mere coffee money. I'm not sure that will prove true with New Defender. Or the RIvian. Not in the long run.

anand · Feb 26, 2024

255/85 said:
I even expect this forum to, soon enough, become a vendor's showplace that will net @Stu_Barnes and his henchmen @Krabby and @anand more than mere coffee money.

@Stu_Barnes there's a coffee allowance?!?!

Stu_Barnes · Feb 26, 2024

anand said:
@Stu_Barnes there's a coffee allowance?!?!

No, tea, please supply your own bag, water and cup, sugar is optional at the consumers expense. I provide the heat as a byproduct of the server heat syncs keeping this forum live. I’ll supply the biscuits.

Non henchmen welcome.

While we’re at it, major thanks go out to

@emax
@Nocrays
@Jeremy996
@"Largo WINCH"
@Pfk
@muxmax
@anand
@Krabby
@ChasingOurTrunks

For your invaluable help and behind the scenes effort in running the community for the 5000+ members.

Max · Feb 26, 2024

Gold Yeti all round...well done chaps

Zimm · Feb 27, 2024

Horses used to be everyday transportation. Horses are now a hobby for those with disposable income and they eat hay, not petrochemicals.

I’ll win this bet.

255/85 · Feb 27, 2024

Zimm said:
Horses used to be everyday transportation. Horses are now a hobby for those with disposable income and they eat hay, not petrochemicals.

I’ll win this bet.

Absolutes are a gambler's pipe dream. Horses are still preferred in some lines of work as they don't require a road. That can't be truly said for any other wheeled vehicle - ICE, BEV, or fuel cell - short of a motorcycle.

My father rode a horse to school every day because he had to. When he moved to a city he didn't need a horse any longer and bought a car. Why?

Because the horse ate oats and hay whether you rode him or not. A vehicle can sit in the driveway for a decade and not cost a penny. Grenadiers will probably be around longer than you or I.

bikesandguitars · Feb 28, 2024

255/85 said:
Restoring a couple of my 20-25 year old vehicles two decades ago was a nightmare. Fun? Yes, but still a nightmare. The original manufacturer of each vehicle had largely stopped making replacement parts and the parts houses only sold a few high wear items (tail light lenses, window cranks, etc) or offered rebuilding services (brake calipers, starters, alternators, etc). If your vehicle hadn't been babied you were forced to scour junkyards or old farmer's fields for rusting hulks that you could liberate a few parts from. Tetanus or spider bite were constant fears.

Twenty-five years later there are more parts available for my early 70s pickup than ever before. I just purchased a brand new repopped component - a complex molded plastic dash cluster housing - that I have been searching for since I bought the truck in the late 1980s. They've just now been remade. I nursed my old one along with epoxy and bailing wire and zip ties having never found an original in good enough condition to bother with. I paid $40.00 for the new one. I would have paid 5X the price for a new one a few years back and may pick up a spare. Similar options are now available for my late 70s SWB 4X4.

My point is that we now have the potential to keep a vehicle on the road almost indefinitely. The internet, nearly useless 25 years ago, can coalesce like-minded enthusiasts (and the temporarily smitten) into self-perpetuating communities that align together to solve heretofore insurmountable problems. Cheap small-run manufacturing concerns will turn out just about anything that can be cobbled up in a CAD program and everyone knows someone with a 3D printer. We are no longer on a solo journey with our passions, scratching our head up under the dash or wandering dusty back roads in search of tiny mechanical treasures. If there's something you need or don't know how to fix on your vehicle, there's always a forum ready and willing to spell out umpteen ways of getting or going about it just a click away.

There is one caveat, though. The vehicle (or gizmo or gadget) must have the potential to deliver usability in balance with the pain endured to keep it functional. Some vehicles do this better than others. A 40 Series Toyota is worth it. A Toyota Tercel is not. From my perspective the Ineos Grenadier is a pretty safe bet. I'd lay odds that there will be a sizable dedicated cadre of Grenadier users twenty, thirty, even fifty years hence still running, rebuilding, and re-using these vehicles. I even expect this forum to, soon enough, become a vendor's showplace that will net @Stu_Barnes and his henchmen @Krabby and @anand more than mere coffee money. I'm not sure that will prove true with New Defender. Or the RIvian. Not in the long run.

Totally off subject but your fear of the spider bite is well founded. My son was bitten in the hip by a Brown Recluse spider last fall. It’s been an absolute nightmare. It took three surgeries and tens of thousands of dollars in treatment to remove the necrosis. A bite from an unidentified spider is nothing to screw around with.

grnamin · Feb 28, 2024

anand said:
@Stu_Barnes there's a coffee allowance?!?!

MidnightCamper · Mar 1, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
Totally off subject but your fear of the spider bite is well founded. My son was bitten in the hip by a Brown Recluse spider last fall. It’s been an absolute nightmare. It took three surgeries and tens of thousands of dollars in treatment to remove the necrosis. A bite from an unidentified spider is nothing to screw around with.

It may be off-topic but it's a serious consideration. Keep tetanus boosters current. Watch for snakes. Four Corners fleas and ticks carry diseases. My brother was a janitor in NM and they had to mask up in disused areas where mice hung out.

Tom109 · Mar 1, 2024

lightning said:
My friend recently bought a 20 year old Range Rover. lt was a lovely vehicle in amazing condition but a constant litany of faults and failures cost her thousands of pounds in the first few months. She eventually sold it and it went for £4,000. The new owner had a gearbox failure a month later and the vehicle ended up being sold on for spares.

Now, if she bought a 30yo RRC things would be different…

Jean Mercier · Mar 1, 2024

DrahthHunter said:
WHAT IN THE HELL IS ICE

I am happy to see that I am not the only one swearing at abbreviations

stickshifter · Mar 1, 2024

255/85 said:
Absolutes are a gambler's pipe dream. Horses are still preferred in some lines of work as they don't require a road. That can't be truly said for any other wheeled vehicle - ICE, BEV, or fuel cell - short of a motorcycle.

Yup. Horses are still used for work every day around here.

Lord Ripon USA · Mar 1, 2024

stickshifter said:
Yup. Horses are still used for work every day around here.

Amen to that Stick!
That is a handsome cow dog. Love those things!

A horse is miles better than a four wheeler when a fresh cow hides her calf down in a holler some place.
Plus they're pretty.
I was never great in the sadddle, but my kids are.
And if you train all-age dogs, the view is unsurpassed.

stickshifter · Mar 2, 2024

Lord Ripon USA said:
Amen to that Stick!
That is a handsome cow dog. Love those things!

A horse is miles better than a four wheeler when a fresh cow hides her calf down in a holler some place.
Plus they're pretty.
I was never great in the sadddle, but my kids are.
And if you train all-age dogs, the view is unsurpassed.

Since you are a fan, here are some more working cowboys:

rovie · Mar 2, 2024

stickshifter said:
Yup. Horses are still used for work every day around here.
View attachment 7846260

The foto brings back great memories for me. I would leave my Grenadier behind for this kind of movement.
Many years ago, I changed from classic English riding to riding Quarter Horses, which I treated with the same care as my Grenadier. And there really are similarities. If you follow the horse manual "Horse - Follow Closely", you learn to understand the horse and how to handle the lovely creature. The same applies with the Grenadier, e.g. with the Diff. locks .

Max · Mar 2, 2024

rovie said:
The foto brings back great memories for me. I would leave my Grenadier behind for this kind of movement.
Many years ago, I changed from classic English riding to riding Quarter Horses, which I treated with the same care as my Grenadier. And there really are similarities. If you follow the horse manual "Horse - Follow Closely", you learn to understand the horse and how to handle the lovely creature. The same applies with the Grenadier, e.g. with the Diff. locks .

I understand where you are, follow the horse...rode from a young age and didn't ride in a saddle till my early 20s on a cattle station...I rode a Thoroughbred...two speeds...flat out and canter...then to the Quarter Horse...move with the horse, loved them. When I first arrived at the cattle station the Station Master asked if I could ride and I said "Yes"...wrong answer that is how I ended up with the Thoroughbred...I asked for help with the saddle and he said I thought you said you can ride...yes but I have never used a saddle before...you can become accustomed to just about anything put in front of you...like a Grenadier.

255/85 · Mar 3, 2024

Max said:
When I first arrived at the cattle station the Station Master asked if I could ride and I said "Yes"...wrong answer that is how I ended up with the Thoroughbred...

I said "Yes" once. I ended up on a very spirited Arabian. I say "Kinda" now.

MidnightCamper · Mar 4, 2024

DaBull said:
I always thought the most beautiful vehicle in the world was a Dino, Enzo was unsure how it would be accepted, so at first he did not even put his Ferrari badge on it. I had an opportunity to buy one for $35,000 around 1996 and did not pull the trigger. I know I have good taste and an eye for design. It had a V-6 engine inspired by Enzo's son, Dino. Not many were made because all the Ferrari purists shunned it for not having a V-8 or V-12. Dealers in the US would buy Ferrari badges and stick them on the Dino.
Long story short, which is rare for me, try $450,000+ for one now. Still the most beautiful car in the world.
Wished that was part of my retirement account, even if just for the joy of driving it, as the drive is worth more than the price. I took this picture at the dunes on PCH near Mugu rock. DaBullView attachment 7845359

Picture yourself diving that up the curves along the Riviera... haha When I first scrolled down I saw just the sand and thought you'd taken it out on the dunes at Pismo... PCH is THE BEST

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Ineos Grenadier - rejected

Lord Ripon USA

bikesandguitars

255/85

anand

Photo Contest Winner

Stu_Barnes

Max

Zimm

255/85

bikesandguitars

grnamin

MidnightCamper

Tom109

Jean Mercier

GG#920

stickshifter

Lord Ripon USA

stickshifter

rovie

Max

255/85

MidnightCamper

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