Dual batteries

Joergchm said:

Greetings,

After reading about the negative aspects of the 120S, I'm considering replacing it with a better dual-battery charger system, such as the IBS-DBM20A. Since everything is already in place, it should be easy to replace. I'd simply disconnect and unmount the 120S and replace it with the new system. What are your thoughts on this idea?

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If you have not done so download and read the CTEK User Autumnal. What the two units can do, varies depending on how it is wired. Then make your decision based on your needs. The download link to the Manual is in this post.

The 120 "trickle charge" is a back charge for 3sec every 15sec

The 250 has other benefits other than just solar, boosting the charge current by 20amps. Even charging the Aux batt irrespective of what the 120 is doing.

While there may be some questionable wiring decisions and there is certainly some questions around the wiring, it isnt all bad.

anand said:

As fitted from factory, yes everything is powered via the main battery; but if you're only intention is using the aux for a "just in case jump start", you're much better off (cheaper, lighter, smaller) buying a tiny Lithium jump pack.

The Smartpass 120S allows for what CTEK calls "Start assistance", in which the unit does an automatic direct connection (suitable for 350A) between the two batteries if the main battery "is unable to start the engine" for a period of 10 seconds. This means requires a cranking voltage of <6v on the starter battery for the connection to engage.

Of course, if you have accessories that are running down the starting battery, the CTEK unit also allows the aux battery to trickle charge the starting battery, but I can't find an exact statement of amperage provided. Given that CTEK uses the phrase "trickle charge", I would imagine this is <5A, or roughly what a fridge would draw while running, meaning anything more and it won't be able to keep up. The docs do show that it will only charge the starter battery to 12.6v, which won't ever get it quite topped off.

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Thanks @anand.

Would you know if trickle charging will ultimately flatten the auxiliary battery or will the Smartpass disconnect the auxiliary battery at a certain voltage or state of charge? Its not clear from the Smartpass instructions.

Cheers

Steve

Rok_Dr said:

Thanks @anand.

Would you know if trickle charging will ultimately flatten the auxiliary battery or will the Smartpass disconnect the auxiliary battery at a certain voltage or state of charge? Its not clear from the Smartpass instructions.

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That's a great question, I don't have any personal experience with the Smartpass, I too am simply working off of the documentation.

All my other experience with dual battery systems have involved different isolators (Battery Doctor and Blue Sea ML-ACR primarily) or completely isolated systems with DC-DC charging (AGM starting with LiFePO4 aux).

I'm still up in the air between doing an AGM as my aux battery or lithium when my Grenadier arrives next month

Rok_Dr said:

Thanks @anand.

Would you know if trickle charging will ultimately flatten the auxiliary battery or will the Smartpass disconnect the auxiliary battery at a certain voltage or state of charge? Its not clear from the Smartpass instructions.

Cheers

Steve

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This is where I got stuck, CTEK doesn't make it clear and I haven't got a response from them to my query regarding how their start-assist works. However my Ineos agent has told me they believe the CTEK will provide trickle charge to the primary battery if it's being drained by accessories until it is drained itself leaving you with no charge to start the vehicle from either battery. If anyone has concrete information on how the factory Ineos/CTEK system works I'd love it hear, but for now I don't know how it works and don't trust it!

Miltz said:

This is where I got stuck, CTEK doesn't make it clear and I haven't got a response from them to my query regarding how their start-assist works. However my Ineos agent has told me they believe the CTEK will provide trickle charge to the primary battery if it's being drained by accessories until it is drained itself leaving you with no charge to start the vehicle from either battery. If anyone has concrete information on how the factory Ineos/CTEK system works I'd love it hear, but for now I don't know how it works and don't trust it!

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Below is direct from Ctek support on 19/2/24. I'm still trying to understand it all as I've experienced both batteries next to being flat. I have the D250SE installed. I had left a Victron smart battery protect attached to the Aux battery, switched on @ 1.4mA - no accessories. Also, the main above head consul power switch was left on. Both batteries flat after 5 or 6 days. Maybe this would be normal given what might have been powered up with the switch left on together with the vehicles regular parasitic draw, whatever that might be... but then the aux was flat as well. I also have a powered rear view mirror/camera but have not tested what draw this my be when left unattended and cannot readily find this info, likely under 5w. Comments from Ctek:

Thank you for contacting CTEK!

The Smartpass 120S is not able to trickle charge your start battery.

The trickle charge of your starter battery, that is facilitated with the help from a solar panel connected to D250SE, is a small pulse charge (3sec with a 15 sec interval) that will compensate for the self discharge of your starter battery. Note, this should not be mistaken for a normal charge of the battery.

The service battery will act as a jump starting auxiliary battery if your starting battery is drained by connected consumers.
The Smartpass will manage the jump start and display a blinking red diode to alert you about poor starting ability.

bakepl said:

Below is direct from Ctek support on 19/2/24. I'm still trying to understand it all as I've experienced both batteries next to being flat. I have the D250SE installed. I had left a Victron smart battery protect attached to the Aux battery, switched on @ 1.4mA - no accessories. Also, the main above head consul power switch was left on. Both batteries flat after 5 or 6 days. Maybe this would be normal given what might have been powered up with the switch left on together with the vehicles regular parasitic draw, whatever that might be... but then the aux was flat as well. I also have a powered rear view mirror/camera but have not tested what draw this my be when left unattended and cannot readily find this info, likely under 5w. Comments from Ctek:

Thank you for contacting CTEK!

The Smartpass 120S is not able to trickle charge your start battery.

The trickle charge of your starter battery, that is facilitated with the help from a solar panel connected to D250SE, is a small pulse charge (3sec with a 15 sec interval) that will compensate for the self discharge of your starter battery. Note, this should not be mistaken for a normal charge of the battery.

The service battery will act as a jump starting auxiliary battery if your starting battery is drained by connected consumers.
The Smartpass will manage the jump start and display a blinking red diode to alert you about poor starting ability.

Click to expand...

I will make do with the INEOS system for now but knowing what I know now, if it was an option I would order my Grenadier with high koad panel and electrical preparation but not the second battery and then install a proper system and connect all the consumers that can be switched on with the car not running to the second battery with a proper isolator. For now I am just making sure I have a charged Noko jumpstart pack in the car.

AnD3rew said:

I will make do with the INEOS system for now but knowing what I know now, if it was an option I would order my Grenadier with high koad panel and electrical preparation but not the second battery and then install a proper system and connect all the consumers that can be switched on with the car not running to the second battery with a proper isolator. For now I am just making sure I have a charged Noko jumpstart pack in the car.

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If had time again same here... see how it all goes next trip (with jump-start backup)

AnD3rew said:

I will make do with the INEOS system for now but knowing what I know now, if it was an option I would order my Grenadier with high koad panel and electrical preparation but not the second battery and then install a proper system and connect all the consumers that can be switched on with the car not running to the second battery with a proper isolator. For now I am just making sure I have a charged Noko jumpstart pack in the car.

Click to expand...

This.

bakepl said:

Below is direct from Ctek support on 19/2/24. I'm still trying to understand it all as I've experienced both batteries next to being flat. I have the D250SE installed. I had left a Victron smart battery protect attached to the Aux battery, switched on @ 1.4mA - no accessories. Also, the main above head consul power switch was left on. Both batteries flat after 5 or 6 days. Maybe this would be normal given what might have been powered up with the switch left on together with the vehicles regular parasitic draw, whatever that might be... but then the aux was flat as well. I also have a powered rear view mirror/camera but have not tested what draw this my be when left unattended and cannot readily find this info, likely under 5w. Comments from Ctek:

Thank you for contacting CTEK!

The Smartpass 120S is not able to trickle charge your start battery.

The trickle charge of your starter battery, that is facilitated with the help from a solar panel connected to D250SE, is a small pulse charge (3sec with a 15 sec interval) that will compensate for the self discharge of your starter battery. Note, this should not be mistaken for a normal charge of the battery.

The service battery will act as a jump starting auxiliary battery if your starting battery is drained by connected consumers.
The Smartpass will manage the jump start and display a blinking red diode to alert you about poor starting ability.

Click to expand...

This response seemingly contradicts their own user manual for the D250SE / Smartpass 120s on page 5 which states that where the voltage of the starter battery is low and below that of the service battery, the Smartpass 120s facilitates trickle charging of the starter battery by the service battery in 3-second pulses...without assistance from solar charging or the alternator.

DenisM said:

This response seemingly contradicts their own user manual for the D250SE / Smartpass 120s on page 5 which states that where the voltage of the starter battery is low and below that of the service battery, the Smartpass 120s facilitates trickle charging of the starter battery by the service battery in 3-second pulses...without assistance from solar charging or the alternator.

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I agree with what you say, and what the manual says, because that is the voltage graph of my main battery: you clearly see some short voltage peaks, several times per minute:

DenisM said:

This response seemingly contradicts their own user manual for the D250SE / Smartpass 120s on page 5 which states that where the voltage of the starter battery is low and below that of the service battery, the Smartpass 120s facilitates trickle charging of the starter battery by the service battery in 3-second pulses...without assistance from solar charging or the alternator.

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Yes, which therein lies the problem and no detailed info from Ineos.

Jean Mercier said:

I agree with what you say, and what the manual says, because that is the voltage graph of my main battery: you clearly see some short voltage peaks, several times per minute:
View attachment 7845494

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@Jean Mercier Do you have the D250SE in addition to the factory Smartness 120??

NoMoTaco said:

@Jean Mercier Do you have the D250SE in addition to the factory Smartness 120??

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Yes

bakepl said:

Below is direct from Ctek support on 19/2/24. I'm still trying to understand it all as I've experienced both batteries next to being flat. I have the D250SE installed. I had left a Victron smart battery protect attached to the Aux battery, switched on @ 1.4mA - no accessories. Also, the main above head consul power switch was left on. Both batteries flat after 5 or 6 days. Maybe this would be normal given what might have been powered up with the switch left on together with the vehicles regular parasitic draw, whatever that might be... but then the aux was flat as well. I also have a powered rear view mirror/camera but have not tested what draw this my be when left unattended and cannot readily find this info, likely under 5w. Comments from Ctek:

Thank you for contacting CTEK!

The Smartpass 120S is not able to trickle charge your start battery.

The trickle charge of your starter battery, that is facilitated with the help from a solar panel connected to D250SE, is a small pulse charge (3sec with a 15 sec interval) that will compensate for the self discharge of your starter battery. Note, this should not be mistaken for a normal charge of the battery.

The service battery will act as a jump starting auxiliary battery if your starting battery is drained by connected consumers.
The Smartpass will manage the jump start and display a blinking red diode to alert you about poor starting ability.

Click to expand...

Hi bakepl,

I'll start with what you received back from CTEK. First of all, at least you heard back from them, I did message them over the Christmas/New Year break so perhaps my message got lost among other in their system while support staff were on leave, though that's not the best excuse... From the information they have provided you, and what is available on their website/in the manual, it all suggests the 120S will not trickle charge the starter battery from the auxiliary battery and it has a guard system that prevents the auxiliary battery dropping below a voltage threshold required to boost a drained starter battery to get the car running, however your experience and what my Ineos agent has told me suggests otherwise. So either the CTEK information is incorrect or the 120S doesn't work as advertised...

As for your post, I'm yet to be game enough to try running any accessories via the PWR switch to see as most opportunities I've had to do so have been in places where a jump from another vehicle etc. wouldn't be possible, remote and alone! To date I've had a portable power pack plugged into the cargo 12V socket and then connected my fridge and other devices to that, that gives me about 2 days of power and charges in about 4 hours of driving once flat, but it takes up space and adds weight I'd rather not be carrying.

I actually bought the power pack as a temporary solution prior to fitting a dual battery to my previous vehicle when quickly planned a 2 week off grid trip and bought a larger fridge for it. I did plan on selling it after getting the dual battery installed however decided to keep it just in case for whatever reason and it's turned out to be quite handy, where I live we have quite a few power blackouts so end up bringing the car fridge in and running it off that to keep our house fridge/freezer stuff cool and power devices etc. until the power comes back on.

I do have a basic solar set up on my vehicle now and that provides more than enough power to keep the fridge running indefintatly, it actually seems to put more charge into the battery than the smart alternator does, the alternator doesn't seem to want to charge the batteries above 90% (I assume for battery longevity) however the solar regulator doesn't cut out until the batteries are at 95%. This is going off the vehicles offroad->electrical screen though, not sure how accurate that is, if it's anything like the fuel level/range remaining screen, it is far from accurate...

Cheers,

Paul

AnD3rew said:

I will make do with the INEOS system for now but knowing what I know now, if it was an option I would order my Grenadier with high koad panel and electrical preparation but not the second battery and then install a proper system and connect all the consumers that can be switched on with the car not running to the second battery with a proper isolator. For now I am just making sure I have a charged Noko jumpstart pack in the car.

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Hi AnD3ew,

I'm more or less in the same boat, I did order a Trialmaster so I'm pretty sure the dual battery system was standard, but if I was configuring a base spec vehicle to my liking from scratch and knowing what I do now, I'd do the same, get the high load panel but skip on the dual battery. I'll be pulling the CTEK system out (and the temporary Redarc solar regulator I just installed) before long and fitting a full Redarc system that I know how works and can easily configure/monitor.


Cheers,

Paul

Jean Mercier said:

I agree with what you say, and what the manual says, because that is the voltage graph of my main battery: you clearly see some short voltage peaks, several times per minute:
View attachment 7845494

Click to expand...

Ji Jean,

Very interesting, how are you getting this battery information onto your phone? I'm interested in trying to get this infarction without relying on the vehicles infotainment system, Redarc does a basic solar/battery monitor that connects into their regulators that I'm considering which also allows programming of the regulator via a GUI rather than pressing buttons in sequence with lights etc. on the regulator, It's only A$110 (RRP) and plug & play but also another component (along with the regulator) that I will be getting rid of when I install a full Redarc VMS.


Cheers,

Paul

Miltz said:

Hi AnD3ew,

I'm more or less in the same boat, I did order a Trialmaster so I'm pretty sure the dual battery system was standard, but if I was configuring a base spec vehicle to my liking from scratch and knowing what I do now, I'd do the same, get the high load panel but skip on the dual battery. I'll be pulling the CTEK system out (and the temporary Redarc solar regulator I just installed) before long and fitting a full Redarc system that I know how works and can easily configure/monitor.


Cheers,

Paul

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@Miltz : You are correct...the second battery and high load electrical prep. are standard issue on the Trialmaster.

bakepl said:

Yes, which therein lies the problem and no detailed info from Ineos.

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Hi bakepl,

Still waiting on the user service/repair manuals and technical models/plans we were promised too...

And the Bosch service network that were supposed to be able to deal with Grenadiers having this, I had my solar done via a Bosch service centre (auto-elec specialist and Redarc dealer along with being a general mechanic, very highly regarded in my area and I've used them before with historic vehicles), they knew less about the vehicle than I did, hadn't even seen one in the flesh. Though ironically while I was going through wiring options to get the solar cables to the battery compartment with them another drove past the shop...

Very happy with their service though, great work on the electrics and a Redarc specialist. And allegedly an Ineos service centre though the lack of information they have there seems to go back to Ineos, they've heard they're an Ineos service centre via Bosch but know nothing about the vehicle...


Cheers,

Paul

DenisM said:

@Miltz : You are correct...the second battery and high load electrical prep. are standard issue on the Trialmaster.

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Hi DenisM,

It's been close to 2 years since I spec'd my build so I can't remember what was included with the Trialmaster, I did tick a few other boxes and then added some more while waiting on delivery for agent fitment. From memory it arrived with everything needed from the factory (and arrived with the fire extinguisher option plus 2 set of cargo tie downs I didn't order!). I took it back a couple of weeks after delivery to get the front 1/4 side protection bars/rails fitted that I ordered late in the process, I think that's it.

I think it would have been best if the Trialmaster came with just the high load electrical preparation but also included auxiliary battery wiring with the CTEK/dual battery being a tick box option. The factory fitted CTEK/dual battery system might be alight for weekend warriors but I'm guessing most who want a proper off-grid system are going to pull it out and replace it with something different, e.g Redarc or Enerdrive in AUS, I'm guessing other regions around the world have other preferences. The CTEK isn't great though...


Cheers,

Paul