Eibach Pro-Lift Kit ~ +30mm coil springs

ADVAW8S · Dec 3, 2023

Tom109 said:
So King is obviously the wrong solution for an adventure vehicle!

I need to get some time in my Gren and test the suspension first hand. If the Eibach +30mm spring rates are appropriate (I fear they won’t be) a good solution could be adding 1.2” shock extensions.

Why do you feel they wont be appropriate?

Tom109 · Dec 3, 2023

ADVAW8S said:
Why do you feel they wont be appropriate?

Just thinking back the MD/HD spring options offered for coil-spring LR’s. You could buy a kit but spring rates were over-generalized. We’ll see if +30mm spring rates are published.

ADVAW8S · Dec 3, 2023

Tom109 said:
Just thinking back the MD/HD spring options offered for coil-spring LR’s. You could buy a kit but spring rates were over-generalized. We’ll see if +30mm spring

I feel comfortable since they are manufactured by the same OEM. I assume the spring rate will be the same only slightly thicker and longer.

Tom109 · Dec 3, 2023

ADVAW8S said:
I feel comfortable since they are manufactured by the same OEM. I assume the spring rate will be the same only slightly thicker and longer.

What about the five different spring rates, front & rear?

eibach-spring-rates-analysis-jpg.7826399

ADVAW8S · Dec 3, 2023

Tom109 said:
What about the five different spring rates, front & rear?

My understanding that to simplify production and speed things up that they went to two different spring rates, winch and no winch. We will have to wait until the people start comparing US models. The thing is, every accessory besides winch is dealer installed and people don't have to take delivery of the accessories. How would Ineos know if you changed your mind on the roof rack or skipped the rock sliders. All those were calculated in spring rate for the ROW models

Miki · Dec 6, 2023

Do we know what the spring rates are ?
Kg/mm or lb/in ?

stickshifter · Dec 6, 2023

Krabby said:
I thought the stock shocks were fine with the taller springs.

The stock shocks will work with the taller springs - otherwise Eibach would specify that replacing shocks is required with their lift.

However, you will lose downtravel if you lift the vehicle without going to a longer shock.

So... you gain some ground clearance for the undercarriage with the lift, and - if you choose to - you can run taller tires - which increases ground clearance under your diffs and axle housing. However, you lose some suspension travel - specifically downtravel or "droop" - which is how far the tires can travel down wards. In the first photo, the front left tire is demonstrating downtravel; in the second photo, the front right tire is demonstrating downtravel.

The stock Grenadier has good suspension travel, but you will lose some of that travel if you lift it, and keep the stock shocks. If you want to lift the Grenadier - and retain stock suspension travel - you will need to also install longer shocks.

It is worth noting that more and more vehicles in North America are coming with disconnectable front anti-sway bars, which increase suspension travel (Wrangler Rubicon, Ram Power Wagon, Ford Bronco, the new Landcruiser 250, some models of the new Tacoma). Increasing suspension travel keeps the body of the vehicle "flatter" on technical terrain, which increases safety as well as comfort. Reducing suspension travel might not matter for some users, but it is counter-productive for people who drive on more technical terrain.

AZGrenadier · Dec 6, 2023

I don't think that is entirely true. You do lose down travel but you will gain some compression or up travel. The limiting factor on compression stock is hopefully the bumpstops, not the shocks. If you install longer shocks it is possible that the shocks now become the limiting factor on compression unless longer bump stops are installed. For the Jeeps and Broncos coming with from the factory with 37's they install significantly longer bump stops to prevent the compression. I don't think they are installing significantly longer shocks at the same time but could be wrong on that. The factory Jeeps with 37s total suspension travel is greatly reduced.

Miki · Dec 6, 2023

Shame, like the Toyota LR250, you don't get remote disconnect anti-roll bars...

AZGrenadier · Dec 6, 2023

Maybe Apex will come out with some of these that fit. https://www.apexdesignsusa.com/products/autolynx-sway-bar-disconnect

Tom109 · Dec 6, 2023

I find it is a process, not easily solved with taller spring or longer shocks. I am also completely unfamiliar with Ineos’ suspension, so I need some trail time with it. This is further complicated by the fact that I have never owned/driven selectable lockers. So, maybe I don’t do anything but enjoy the stock vehicle?

stickshifter · Dec 6, 2023

anand said:
As long as you are comfortable with doing off the truck rebuilds every 30k miles or every salt-covered-road winter for those of us here in the US. Kings are great for high speed desert running, but with less than stellar longevity as they are built to be race parts

With that being said, $3500USD for a set of Kings is pretty average. For the Sprinters the fronts alone sell for upwards of $3500 USD, with the full set art just shy of $6k

King shocks are some of the best in the world, but you do have to know what you are buying.

First, they are a progressive shock (as are most), which means they are soft over small bumps, and progressively get firmer as you hit the "whoops" (rolling bumps like moguls) or bigger bumps. Kings tend to feel a bit soft for daily driving, so if you prefer to feel the road more, you might prefer a digressive shock - like Icon - which are firm on the small stuff, and give your 4x4 a more sporty feel, and they get softer as you hit bigger bumps.

Second, King shocks excel at high speed desert running, though they are also excellent for rock crawling. Many of the vehicles running King of the Hammers run King shocks. Arizona Desert Shocks (ADS) are as good as King for high speed off-road, and the top-end Fox shocks are not far behind King and ADS (but they are a little behind). Since King started out as a desert shock, their original shafts were not designed for winter conditions, and did not hold up well to road salt, or magnesium chloride (which we use in Colorado to de-ice the roads). The shafts would corrode or get pitted, and that could lead to blown seals.

However, there are different models of King shocks - so generalizations about "King durability" do not hold up.

You can buy King shocks that have machined and polished shafts made from a solid piece of 17-4 stainless steel, and these are durable in winter conditions; they do not have a "coating" that can wear off over time (which is a problem with cheaper shocks). The oil in these shocks is proprietary from King, and is good down to -55 degrees Fahrenheit. All King shocks are built with a plated steel body.

But King shocks are high-performance shocks. They won't last as long as a stock shock on a Landcruiser 200. But they are designed to be rebuilt, so you can send them back to King for service when necessary. How often they need to be rebuilt will depend on how you use them. If you are racing in the desert every weekend, you might need to rebuild them once per year, but a lot of people I know get many years of use without a rebuild.

I ran King shocks on my Jeep JKU (2-inch lift, 35-inch tires, re-geared to 4:56, Dynatrac ProRock 44 front axle with free-spin hubs, Synergy front end components, RCV axle shafts, etc.). I had the 3.8 and it was really slow on Colorado highways, but it was a beast off-road. The King shocks were awesome. I drove them on long wash board roads in temps between 100-110 degrees Fahrenheit (38-43 degrees Celsius), had them in temps as low as -40 degrees Fahrenheit (which is -40 degrees Celsius), and they performed great. In daily driving they were a little too "floaty" for my preference, but I prefer firm riding vehicles, and most people love the ride of Kings. One of my shocks developed a leak after a couple of years, and King rebuilt all four shocks for free.

If I buy a Grenadier, I will get the Eibach lift, and I will pay $2,000 for a set of King shocks without hesitation.

stickshifter · Dec 6, 2023

AZGrenadier said:
I don't think that is entirely true. You do lose down travel but you will gain some compression or up travel. The limiting factor on compression stock is hopefully the bumpstops, not the shocks. If you install longer shocks it is possible that the shocks now become the limiting factor on compression unless longer bump stops are installed. For the Jeeps and Broncos coming with from the factory with 37's they install significantly longer bump stops to prevent the compression. I don't think they are installing significantly longer shocks at the same time but could be wrong on that. The factory Jeeps with 37s total suspension travel is greatly reduced.

The higher you lift a vehicle, the longer you want your shock - if you want to take advantage of the potential increase in wheel travel that a lift can provide. If you don't care about wheel travel, you don't need to increase shock length (though you might need to mitigate the potential problem of unseating a shock).

There are other things you have to do when you lift a vehicle to ensure maximum articulation, and I won't go into that here. Instead, I'll just post this chart below, which is a quick example of how one company increases shock length as they increase lift height.

AZGrenadier · Dec 6, 2023

Again you are assuming that the shock is the limiting factor for articulation. It might be, it might not be. Does anyone know if the down travel is limited by binding or is it limited by the shock currently? If it is limited by binding then longer shocks won’t matter and may hamper upward travel as the body of the shock may may be too long. It’s possible that the springs are already too stiff and don’t allow full stuff. All of this will probably be figured out in the next year or so as people start driving these in the US. Seems like too many regulations everywhere else in the world to really start messing with the suspension. I do agree that most likely it will need longer shocks, but I would head out to buy any yet before I know if they will help or not.

j.ironfab · Dec 6, 2023

AZGrenadier said:
I don't think that is entirely true. You do lose down travel but you will gain some compression or up travel. The limiting factor on compression stock is hopefully the bumpstops, not the shocks. If you install longer shocks it is possible that the shocks now become the limiting factor on compression unless longer bump stops are installed. For the Jeeps and Broncos coming with from the factory with 37's they install significantly longer bump stops to prevent the compression. I don't think they are installing significantly longer shocks at the same time but could be wrong on that. The factory Jeeps with 37s total suspension travel is greatly reduced.

You are correct but I would assume with these modest lift springs and stock shocks you do not lose any wheel travel. As you pointed out the shock would limit down and the bump would limit up. In theory at least as I have not measured the stock suspension. So wheel travel would stay the same as stock.

stickshifter said:
King shocks are some of the best in the world, but you do have to know what you are buying.

First, they are a progressive shock (as are most), which means they are soft over small bumps, and progressively get firmer as you hit the "whoops" (rolling bumps like moguls) or bigger bumps. Kings tend to feel a bit soft for daily driving, so if you prefer to feel the road more, you might prefer a digressive shock - like Icon - which are firm on the small stuff, and give your 4x4 a more sporty feel, and they get softer as you hit bigger bumps.

Second, King shocks excel at high speed desert running, though they are also excellent for rock crawling. Many of the vehicles running King of the Hammers run King shocks. Arizona Desert Shocks (ADS) are as good as King for high speed off-road, and the top-end Fox shocks are not far behind King and ADS (but they are a little behind). Since King started out as a desert shock, their original shafts were not designed for winter conditions, and did not hold up well to road salt, or magnesium chloride (which we use in Colorado to de-ice the roads). The shafts would corrode or get pitted, and that could lead to blown seals.

However, there are different models of King shocks - so generalizations about "King durability" do not hold up.

You can buy King shocks that have machined and polished shafts made from a solid piece of 17-4 stainless steel, and these are durable in winter conditions; they do not have a "coating" that can wear off over time (which is a problem with cheaper shocks). The oil in these shocks is proprietary from King, and is good down to -55 degrees Fahrenheit. All King shocks are built with a plated steel body.

But King shocks are high-performance shocks. They won't last as long as a stock shock on a Landcruiser 200. But they are designed to be rebuilt, so you can send them back to King for service when necessary. How often they need to be rebuilt will depend on how you use them. If you are racing in the desert every weekend, you might need to rebuild them once per year, but a lot of people I know get many years of use without a rebuild.

I ran King shocks on my Jeep JKU (2-inch lift, 35-inch tires, re-geared to 4:56, Dynatrac ProRock 44 front axle with free-spin hubs, Synergy front end components, RCV axle shafts, etc.). I had the 3.8 and it was really slow on Colorado highways, but it was a beast off-road. The King shocks were awesome. I drove them on long wash board roads in temps between 100-110 degrees Fahrenheit (38-43 degrees Celsius), had them in temps as low as -40 degrees Fahrenheit (which is -40 degrees Celsius), and they performed great. In daily driving they were a little too "floaty" for my preference, but I prefer firm riding vehicles, and most people love the ride of Kings. One of my shocks developed a leak after a couple of years, and King rebuilt all four shocks for free.

If I buy a Grenadier, I will get the Eibach lift, and I will pay $2,000 for a set of King shocks without hesitation.

You can't call King shocks just progressive the benefit of Kings or the better Fox shocks is that they can be tuned to what fits best for the build. Depending on the stack and valving you can have Kings be progressive, linear or digressive and you can control compression and rebound. Really if you want to have the best setup you need to know everything about the suspension, weight of the vehicle and of course the intended use.

For those of us who build custom suspension I would never use a shock that comes in a lift kit but once the build is done we corner weigh the truck with the daily amount of gear and then build a shock that best fits the truck. Personally when I get the Gren the first thing I will do is pull the springs and start measuring the suspension and how it reacts in its travel. This will tell me how much I can lift the truck before I start to see negative affects on the caster or issues with front driveshaft angle. The front and rear suspensions from the pictures look like parallel 4 links so I am pretty excited to see that compared to the radius arms on the older G-Wagon. Once all that is done and the daily gear like fridge and awning are put on the truck it will get corner weighed and a shock tuned for that. I have 35's in the shop waiting for the Gren.

Also getting a shock built for the truck is not much more than just buying one from a kit that someone else decided would fit the truck okay for most uses. The biggest hurdle for most is corner weight scales but you can find a racing shop and they will do it for you.

You seem to have a good understanding of suspension and shocks but here are some references if you want to add to that knowledge base.

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving – AccuTune Off-Road

accutuneoffroad.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvgRcDY7Qg

AZGrenadier · Dec 6, 2023

This is an exciting time for sure. Finally after all the mall crawlers around the world have been driving it for a year

we will get some real use out of them. Personally I like the idea of some Bilstein 8100's with a minimal lift to fit 35's. If it needs more then 2 inches I would probably just run a smaller tire. For now at least.

GrenX · Dec 6, 2023

Longterm for my Ineos Grenadier I would be considering Koni Raid 90 shocks with the Eibach +30 for overlanding with 33” Tyres.

stickshifter · Dec 6, 2023

j.ironfab said:
You are correct but I would assume with these modest lift springs and stock shocks you do not lose any wheel travel. As you pointed out the shock would limit down and the bump would limit up. In theory at least as I have not measured the stock suspension. So wheel travel would stay the same as stock.

You can't call King shocks just progressive the benefit of Kings or the better Fox shocks is that they can be tuned to what fits best for the build. Depending on the stack and valving you can have Kings be progressive, linear or digressive and you can control compression and rebound. Really if you want to have the best setup you need to know everything about the suspension, weight of the vehicle and of course the intended use.

For those of us who build custom suspension I would never use a shock that comes in a lift kit but once the build is done we corner weigh the truck with the daily amount of gear and then build a shock that best fits the truck. Personally when I get the Gren the first thing I will do is pull the springs and start measuring the suspension and how it reacts in its travel. This will tell me how much I can lift the truck before I start to see negative affects on the caster or issues with front driveshaft angle. The front and rear suspensions from the pictures look like parallel 4 links so I am pretty excited to see that compared to the radius arms on the older G-Wagon. Once all that is done and the daily gear like fridge and awning are put on the truck it will get corner weighed and a shock tuned for that. I have 35's in the shop waiting for the Gren.

Also getting a shock built for the truck is not much more than just buying one from a kit that someone else decided would fit the truck okay for most uses. The biggest hurdle for most is corner weight scales but you can find a racing shop and they will do it for you.

You seem to have a good understanding of suspension and shocks but here are some references if you want to add to that knowledge base.

Digressive vs Linear vs Progressive Pistons & Shock Valving – AccuTune Off-Road

accutuneoffroad.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvgRcDY7Qg

Yeah, I know there is much more to shocks and to a good suspension than what I wrote - but I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole. I don't build custom suspensions for a living like you do - so I definitely do not have that level of expertise - but I've built enough suspensions over the last 35 years to have a basic understanding of suspension geometry and how it can go wrong. But its always great to talk with an expert. One of my good friends builds Jeeps, and its great listening to him.

Its probably worth mentioning that most people modifying their 4x4 do not go through the process of custom-tuning their shocks to their vehicle. That's a relatively small crowd - though if you are always running heavy, or have specific performance goals - it is well worth the time and effort. Instead, I think it is more common - at least among the folk I hang out with - for people to shop around, read reviews, talk to experts, and find a complete kit (shocks included) that meets their goals. In my crowd, that goal is the smallest lift height that still allows for the tire size and articulation that meets the desired end use with regard to terrain or load carrying capacity. A good kit from a good company falls into a sweet-spot that balances cost, performance, and time.

What are your thoughts on the relatively short control arms as you plan on 35s for the Gren? It seems like the angle of those arms will get pretty steep with a lift that can accommodate a 35-inch tire, still maintain a good scrub radius, and avoid rubbing on the inner fender or on front end components. Are you considering developing a long-arm kit, or do you think the stock arms will be okay? Also, are you planning on developing a bumper with a swing-out tire carrier for the 35-inch spare, or do you see an alternative?

trobex · Dec 6, 2023

DCPU said:
View attachment 7821466

Good effort by the team. Sadly this basically gives us 10mm more then the stated original clearances. Still OK considering but agree with Big - be nice if this was 50-60mm.

j.ironfab · Dec 7, 2023

stickshifter said:
Yeah, I know there is much more to shocks and to a good suspension than what I wrote - but I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole. I don't build custom suspensions for a living like you do - so I definitely do not have that level of expertise - but I've built enough suspensions over the last 35 years to have a basic understanding of suspension geometry and how it can go wrong. But its always great to talk with an expert. One of my good friends builds Jeeps, and its great listening to him.

Its probably worth mentioning that most people modifying their 4x4 do not go through the process of custom-tuning their shocks to their vehicle. That's a relatively small crowd - though if you are always running heavy, or have specific performance goals - it is well worth the time and effort. Instead, I think it is more common - at least among the folk I hang out with - for people to shop around, read reviews, talk to experts, and find a complete kit (shocks included) that meets their goals. In my crowd, that goal is the smallest lift height that still allows for the tire size and articulation that meets the desired end use with regard to terrain or load carrying capacity. A good kit from a good company falls into a sweet-spot that balances cost, performance, and time.

What are your thoughts on the relatively short control arms as you plan on 35s for the Gren? It seems like the angle of those arms will get pretty steep with a lift that can accommodate a 35-inch tire, still maintain a good scrub radius, and avoid rubbing on the inner fender or on front end components. Are you considering developing a long-arm kit, or do you think the stock arms will be okay? Also, are you planning on developing a bumper with a swing-out tire carrier for the 35-inch spare, or do you see an alternative?

Yeah I agree a kit is how most people go and it's usually pretty good from reputable brands but always a middle ground cause they don't know the real weight of the truck. I just wanted to point out that you could do custom valved shocks for very little difference in price and be much happier. That being said I am cheap and the Gren will probably get an appropriate length 5165 Bilstein with a close enough rebound for me.

On the short arms I can't really say till I get measurements on the links and travel and space in the wheel well. If need be I will build custom control arms that could fix some issue but length will always be an issue for the Gren. I don't want to go changing their frame/axle mounts right away but 35's will be what I want for this truck so we will see. I like having the wheel on the door so I will probably just build a mount that moves the stock mount over. I always hated having to swing the tire out and then the door. I am more worried about moving the coolers out of the wings in the front bumper which is the dumbest thing I have seen in awhile for a supposed purposed built truck.

I see a bunch of potential in the Gren for what I want in a truck however there are some major short comings for a "off-road" truck as the marketing people like to say it is.

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Eibach Pro-Lift Kit ~ +30mm coil springs

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