Hydrogen Fuel Cell Grenadier testing about to start

Now in a new frock:

JCB testing hydrogen combustion engines in Mercedes trucks also
View: https://youtu.be/X4GAOmDCOGs?si=CuN9aA-9UzPlkm9C

DCPU said:

Now in a new frock:
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I am following Ineos Automotive on LinkedIn ( of course @Stu_Barnes too )
They do a lot of singing and dancing about the Grenadier and the Quartermaster but not yet a lot on FC.
The problem I still see it’s a restricted use in top infrastructure countries..
It overcomes a lot of issues and disadvantages of a BEV but brings other disadvantages in.
I know Ineos makes hydrogen but .. never forget the practical problems..
Again and Again Why not Methanol?

Too subtle, the hydrogen could be bigger.

I read through most of the forum but didn't see a target for release. Is this something in 2025?

DCPU said:

Now in a new frock:
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I'm hoping to leap frog over the electric vehicles and get to the hydrogen economy. We have the renewable energy to separate and produce the hydrogen and the pipelines to transport it. Let's do this!

This is all about INEOS chemicals and not at all about a serious car program in my opinion. Few if any countries have a practical hydrogen infrastructure even for cities let alone for Grenadier target customers

AnD3rew said:

This is all about INEOS chemicals and not at all about a serious car program in my opinion. Few if any countries have a practical hydrogen infrastructure even for cities let alone for Grenadier target customers

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It may be for show, however you have to start somewhere and getting another working concept hydrogen vehicle up and tested is another step towards clean energy, providing it is created from renewable Solar, Wind, Hydro or Nuclear. Who knows, perhaps a hydrogen Grenadier will be the vehicle that catches the public's imagination more than a Toyota does. DaBull

DaBull said:

It may be for show, however you have to start somewhere and getting another working concept hydrogen vehicle up and tested is another step towards clean energy, providing it is created from renewable Solar, Wind, Hydro or Nuclear. Who knows, perhaps a hydrogen Grenadier will be the vehicle that catches the public's imagination more than a Toyota does. DaBull

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Don’t get me wrong, I support all progress towards renewables. To me the smartest thing is e fuels, liquids synthetic fuels made from renewables that can utilise existing fuel infrastructure and transportable in jerry cans etc.

I started to read through this thread, was looking for how IG was implementing Hydrogen as a fuel, but it went political pretty quick.

Is IG’s implementation as fuel for ICE or FCEV?

klarie said:

I am following Ineos Automotive on LinkedIn ( of course @Stu_Barnes too )
They do a lot of singing and dancing about the Grenadier and the Quartermaster but not yet a lot on FC.
The problem I still see it’s a restricted use in top infrastructure countries..
It overcomes a lot of issues and disadvantages of a BEV but brings other disadvantages in.
I know Ineos makes hydrogen but .. never forget the practical problems..
Again and Again Why not Methanol?

Click to expand...

Nearest I can tell why not (google search):

Because there are drawbacks. Because it has a richer air/fuel ratio than gasoline, running methanol means reduced fuel economy. It's also very corrosive, and can eat through fuel lines if left sitting. For racing, however, methanol makes for a very good fuel, so expect to see more of it at the track near you.

Roach said:

I started to read through this thread, was looking for how IG was implementing Hydrogen as a fuel, but it went political pretty quick.

Is IG’s implementation as fuel for ICE or FCEV?

Click to expand...

Hydrogen fuel cell I believe

Not my area of expertise, but I have a hard time making sense out of the idea of hydrogen-powered cars. As mentioned previously, you have the issue of high-pressure tanks in cars (which can probably be resolved), the shift to hydrogen require building out new infrastructure (which we could do if it made good sense), but it just doesn't seem like the right fuel source for cars.

Based on efficiency calculations, there are two types of hydrogen: Blue Hydrogen and Green Hydrogen.

Blue Hydrogen: the power for the electrolysis process to separate hydrogen from water is derived from fossil fuels. In the U.S., about 10 million metric tons of hydrogen are produced from oil and gas annually, and much more than that globally. However, only 1% of global hydrogen production is currently using carbon capture and storage to reduce emissions. So this form of producing hydrogen is not a "green" solution to energy needs. The use-case for blue hydrogen in cars is to relocate the site of emissions from congested urban areas to some other place - but you still have emissions from producing the hydrogen using fossil fuels. An analogy would be powering an electric car by burning coal or natural gas; the car might be driven in a congested city, and so you have reduced emissions in that city, but the coal or gas-fired power plant is producing emissions out in some more rural area. Oil companies promote blue hydrogen with carbon capture for obvious reasons (the continued use of fossil fuels), but the reality is that we are a long, long way from the widespread use of carbon capture.

Green Hydrogen: uses renewable energy to separate hydrogen from water. Only a tiny fraction of hydrogen being produced now is done so using renewable energy. Of course, this could change in the future, but even if most hydrogen we use for fuel ends up getting produced using renewable energy, there is still a very significant problem: green hydrogen production requires a lot of electricity to power the electrolysis process – electricity that could otherwise be used to directly power homes, transportation and industry. It is more efficient to use the electricity from renewables directly, rather than to use it to make hydrogen. The best use-case for green hydrogen is for powering something like a hydrogen plane (in development now). Planes have high emissions, and will probably never fly on electric batteries. Using green energy to make hydrogen involves a lot of loss of energy, but might be worth the inefficiencies in exchange for green flight. According to some estimates, you get about 80% efficiency from using renewable energy to make electricity for use in an electric car; you only get about 30% efficiency from using renewable energy to make hydrogen for use in a car.

As to whether or not this topic is appropriate on a car-enthusiast forum: if you don't want to read a thread on hydrogen fuel cells, don't click on the thread! The topic itself seems relevant to some, and not relevant to others - just like every other topic on this forum. People can hold different opinions or come to different conclusions after surveying the evidence. There are also people who will believe what they want to believe - regardless of evidence. That's the reality of the human condition. So... if you are getting annoyed with a particular thread, just stop reading it. But other folk might be enjoying the discussion. Why suggest that the discussion doesn't have a place on a car enthusiast forum? We are talking about the possibility of hydrogen fuel for cars, and in particular, for the Grenadier.

@stickshifter agree. I suppose we have to start someplace. I’m all for Experimenting but doesn’t seem the place for a small auto company like INEOS….unless…mentioned in a previous post, this is really about INEOS chemical.

Ref: https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-hydrogen/

Maybe the Grenadier is just an experiment for something totally different

Roach said:

@stickshifter agree. I suppose we have to start someplace. I’m all for Experimenting but doesn’t seem the place for a small auto company like INEOS….unless…mentioned in a previous post, this is really about INEOS chemical.

Ref: https://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-hydrogen/

Maybe the Grenadier is just an experiment for something totally different

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I agree: no alternative will look great at the beginning - but you are right - we have to start someplace. For example, the rapid adoption of all-electric looks disastrous for the American electric grid. California's grid, for example, cannot handle the draw of air conditioners during hot spells, so it sure will need massive upgrade before it can handle the rapid expansion of BEVs. But of course, there was a time when we did not have the infrastructure for internal combustion engines, so we can change pretty fast when it makes sense socially and economically.

"Lights Out" by Ted Koppel (2016) is a pretty sobering account of the state of the American electrical grid, but its not in my AO, so I can't comment on its accuracy.

LC0013 said:

Nearest I can tell why not (google search):

Because there are drawbacks. Because it has a richer air/fuel ratio than gasoline, running methanol means reduced fuel economy. It's also very corrosive, and can eat through fuel lines if left sitting. For racing, however, methanol makes for a very good fuel, so expect to see more of it at the track near you.

Click to expand...

I do not mean Methanol to burn like in a Top Fuel Drag Race but as a safe alternative to Hydrogen to feed Fuel cells. Not to replace gasoline. The type of Fuel Cell is called direct methanol Fuel cell. See link Wikipedia.

For the first time in a century we are faced with being in a transition period where ICE (gas/diesel) might be greatly diminished in 10 years. For me, I hang on to some cars for 7+ years. What does the resale value look like if any of the above catch on.

it seems like electric has caught on but as @stickshifter points out, lots of growing pains. Maybe Moore’s law will take care of generation and consumption.

klarie said:

I do not mean Methanol to burn like in a Top Fuel Drag Race but as a safe alternative to Hydrogen to feed Fuel cells. Not to replace gasoline. The type of Fuel Cell is called direct methanol Fuel cell. See link Wikipedia.

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Thanks for that- never heard of this type of system.

Roach said:

For the first time in a century we are faced with being in a transition period where ICE (gas/diesel) might be greatly diminished in 10 years. For me, I hang on to some cars for 7+ years. What does the resale value look like if any of the above catch on.

it seems like electric has caught on but as @stickshifter points out, lots of growing pains. Maybe Moore’s law will take care of generation and consumption.

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Perhaps. There are a lot of topics to be considered and need to be resolved.
Currently e-Vehicles and in particular BEV are somewhat greenwashed. True CO 2 means (If CO2 is a factor at all which I seriously doubt) counting from production of ore and resources to - final traceless recycling of each part of the vehicle.
Loading infrastructure, range, energy density, lasting of batteries, power2weight ratio, durability of the vehicle.
As of now - we have still some LandRover 110 and many G Wagons operational - that are from way last century - and they work.
Sustainable means the product is durable, lasting, can easy be repaired. Not thrown by obsolete, no spare parts available, etc. Like in electronics where the display breaks 2 days after warranty period is over. No spare parts and expensive repair.
I wrote already an electric motor is a quite efficient, low number of parts, quiet method of getting things in motion. Electric supply is the topic, where to get the energy, where to store it. How fast to charge and who is in control of resources. There are also some health questions (magnetic flow ) and its impact to human body.
There is a lot more to be considered in individual transport. - In US - high populated areas such as Bay Area, Greater LA, NYC to Washington DC,
in UK London, in Germany Rhine Main, Ruhr Area .. where a lot of people.. maybe.. but in Montana? Alaska? In Germany we are high populated but if someone lives in the region close to CZ ..
In the US - public transport - rail based is extremly low. London Underground runs in peak times within less a minute a train is arriving. So for those who commute a proper rail based safe and secure (e-powered) public transport may be even more feasible than electric cars.
commuters with combined solutions. car + rail + bus + airtaxi (perhaps e powered) make more sense than just considering one form of transport.

So I think combustion powered and e powered transportation vehicles will coexist a long time - and perhaps more public transport as long it is safe and reliable.

As long as there is air, temperature and pressure involved you get CO2 and nitric oxide, regardless of the fuel.

AWo