Tow Bars

CountyV8 · Jul 10, 2023

Miki said:
Well that scuppers Mr @CountyV8 then as he said in March ..."as I sometimes tow plant equipment with a ring hitch." ... sounds a bit 'commercial that' possibly not M1 compliant is it ... using the 'car' for commercial purposes possibly falls into @Eric 's fine statement "In the event of an accident brought about by an unauthorised/modified device (tow ball) the insurer would be able to walk away from any claim in respect of your costs brought about by failure of that device or consequence of the use of that device." - that would appear to be the whole car in this instance as doing anything 'commercial' (towing/carrying anything other than a bed and the kitchen sink) would be totaly ilegal in your eyes as you are using an M1 classed vehicle as a class N1 vehicle ?
Which nullifies your insurane (buy buy insurance wasn't it ? @Eric ) so driving without insurance ... tut tut.

The other thing is that if you have an N1 vehicle then as it's MAM is over 3000kgs you will need a Class 5 MOT whereas the M1 only needs a Class 4 (as it's not for commecial use), so if you have the wrong MOT then you are also beaking more laws ...
What a can of worms you have opened @Eric and @CountyV8 - a real Pandoras Box

It is my own private plant not used for commercial purposes i.e no hire and reward.

Miki · Jul 10, 2023

Heres another difference ...

RFL (road tax) as M1 cost over £40k = £2,605 First Registration
2nd Year £570
3rd Year £570
4th Year £570
5th Year £570
6th Year and onwards £180, assuming the government in power don't change the rules again!

An N1 vehicle is £320 per year from year 1

Of course you can drive on ~~motorways~~ dual carriageways @ 70mph in an M1 and only 60 in an N1 (corrected)

I do like it @CountyV8 - "That's my personal digger officer ... honest"

Logsplitter · Jul 11, 2023

I don’t want to appear pedantic but here are the Speed limits for N1 vehicles

Van speed limits:

> Speed limit in built-up areas (such as towns and cities): 30mph – the same as a car
> Single carriageway speed limit (with the National Speed Limit sign): 50mph – 10mph less than a car
> Dual carriageway speed limit: 60mph – 10mph less than a car
> Motorway speed limit: 70mph – the same as a car

DCPU · Jul 11, 2023

Miki said:
There were several pictures posted ...
All (it looks like) can take the DB adjustable plate (bolted on with 4 bolts) and then you can fit the DB Ball and Jaw 'hook' ....

Which pictures are you referring to?

DCPU · Jul 11, 2023

Miki said:
My respose to your post (https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/grenadiers-towing.12411928/post-1333196696) above was to answer the fact that you have been unabler to provide any real reason why you believe that people shouldn't fit 'alternative' tow systems to a Grenny because 'if they do their insurance will be void and their loads will fall off'....

Not sure who you are quoting but they're not my words...

Miki said:
When you ewere asked to explain why you thought a trailer/load would fall off you posted a picture of an old(ish) 110 and a trailor stating that this was the 'consequence'.

Again I was not asked any such question.

Miki · Jul 11, 2023

DCPU said:
Not sure who you are quoting but they're not my words...

Again I was not asked any such question.

Ah, have I got you mixed up with someone else ? ... let me go trawl through and i'll get back to you.
Hold that thought.

DCPU · Jul 12, 2023

So this discussions about fitting a Dixon Bate adjustable drop plate, I thought it worth including these posts from a different thread, where @JohnHeagney has done just such a thing:

What's not totally clear, and maybe @JohnHeagney can clarify, is what needed to be done to fit it in terms of modification, drilling, etc to either the drop plate or the Vertical Towing Interface?

JohnHeagney said:
Just one further comment, I have asked Ineos today for their view on me fitting the Dixon Bate adjustable drop plate and await their response.

JohnHeagney said:
There was no option for me apart from fitting this kit to allow me to tow the trailer that required a lower tow ball position.

Did you reject the Ineos drop hitch option?

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

DCPU said:
Not sure who you are quoting but they're not my words...

Again I was not asked any such question.

I'ver looked back and the original neurosis and questions wasn't you, it was @CountyV8
You stepped in and called me a liar when I described how a simple differential lock worked and again after I had asked @CountyV8 if he could describe why he thought using A N Other towing system on a Grenny would lead to absolute failure and a criminal record.
You also stepped in to that discussion showing a picture of an incident, without any explanation, in support of @CountyV8 (who has dissapeared I note).

You then took on the roll of 'forum policeman' moving posts to different threads etc and cross examining what people say.

I am glad to see that you have come around to my suggestion that fitting a DB/AL KO adjustable mount would work and that they aren't just some 'old landrover part'.

DCPU · Jul 12, 2023

Where to start...or not...

Eric · Jul 12, 2023

DCPU said:
Where to start...or not...

Escaped from FB, ignore may go back to FB

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

DCPU said:
So this discussions about fitting a Dixon Bate adjustable drop plate, I thought it worth including these posts from a different thread, where @JohnHeagney has done just such a thing:
View attachment 7819726

What's not totally clear, and maybe @JohnHeagney can clarify, is what needed to be done to fit it in terms of modification, drilling, etc to either the drop plate or the Vertical Towing Interface?

I'm not sure why you are still questioning this @DCPU is it because you are not from an engineering/practical background ?
These interfaces are subject to a British Standard, a standard that defined the size and layout of a coupling interface to form a towing system.

Any 'type sapproved' mount will bolt to it.
The mount will be designed to carry a cerrtain load.
The Ineos mount is rated @ 3500kgs so will be around 7000kgs before it breaks.
The DB system is 3500 and 5000kgs depending on which one you bu=y and how it is coupled to the tow vehicle.
The example you are questioning above is 5000kgs.

DCPU said:
Did you reject the Ineos drop hitch option?

View attachment 7819729

So that pin looks to be 14mm ?
It will likely be a hardened steel (8.8 as a minimum)

It will be rated at 3500kg and is likely the weakest link in the Ineos towing system.
Before you go off on one @DCPU i'm not saying it will break when you are towing as its degin will exceed the generated shear force many times.

Bolting a hitch on with 4 steel bolts *(even if they are only 12mm) will far outweigh the force required to be ripped apart than shearing that single, Ineos supplied. pin.

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

Eric said:
Escaped from FB, ignore may go back to FB

Sorry, I missed you out in my previous response.
I'ver looked back and the original neurosis and questions wasn't you (@DCPU ) it was @CountyV8 and his mate @Eric

ps
Never been of Facebook me, (you are the one on Facebook) just can't stand people talking complete pish and arguing back when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

DCPU said:
Where to start...or not...

At the beginning ?
I'm always open to a discussion and to be told (by someone who knows more about the subject than I do) when i'm wrong.
There is a PM system on here too

JonSutton · Jul 12, 2023

Very entertaining exchanges.

I would just tell your insurer what you are doing. I’ve found them ok with this approach, wheels, tyres, towing trailers, etc. I also check specifically as to what they consider to be modifications. Standard has always been something fitted at the factory or by a supplying main dealer before delivery. I only use the larger insurers for regular road use vehicles.

I do tow up to 3.5 tonnes, own use only, not for reward.

Remember that for consumers insurers have to act reasonably and treat their customers fairly, they are well regulated in the UK. If you’ve told them and they’ve not said ‘no’ you’ve a contract for insurance IMO.

Where we might run into issues is where Ineos have made a mistake with DVLA or DVSA and subsequently corrected the mistake. That would be interesting because I think insurers have access to the UK vehicle database and use it to make their decisions.

Eric · Jul 12, 2023

JonSutton said:
Very entertaining exchanges.

I would just tell your insurer what you are doing. I’ve found them ok with this approach, wheels, tyres, towing trailers, etc. I also check specifically as to what they consider to be modifications. Standard has always been something fitted at the factory or by a supplying main dealer before delivery. I only use the larger insurers for regular road use vehicles.

I do tow up to 3.5 tonnes, own use only, not for reward.

Remember that for consumers insurers have to act reasonably and treat their customers fairly, they are well regulated in the UK. If you’ve told them and they’ve not said ‘no’ you’ve a contract for insurance IMO.

Where we might run into issues is where Ineos have made a mistake with DVLA or DVSA and subsequently corrected the mistake. That would be interesting because I think insurers have access to the UK vehicle database and use it to make their decisions.

said with sense Jon,

Tom109 · Jul 12, 2023

@Miki I will only add that the drop hitch w/pin is the norm in NA, and we would typically only see a DB adjustable drop plate on an old, imported LR. In the combined 50+ years personal towing, between my father and myself, I've never seen a pin fail. Also, owning high clearance 4wd vehicles, I have never used as much drop as shown in the Ineos hitch posted above.

bigleonski · Jul 12, 2023

Yeah, that’s ridiculous.
For a drop hitch on the camper I use this, but off the 50mm square hitch, which to me makes a heap more sense that the euro spec bolt on hitch to the vehicle.

DCPU · Jul 12, 2023

Eric said:
Escaped from FB, ignore may go back to FB

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

Tom109 said:
@Miki I will only add that the drop hitch w/pin is the norm in NA, and we would typically only see a DB adjustable drop plate on an old, imported LR. In the combined 50+ years personal towing, between my father and myself, I've never seen a pin fail. Also, owning high clearance 4wd vehicles, I have never used as much drop as shown in the Ineos hitch posted above.

Tom
I agree the 12mm HTS pin (through the square section) won't fail under normal towing conditions,
To shear the pin would take approx 7980kg (79KN)

If you did manage to generate that much force then there would be something quite catastrophic happening behind you and it would be a good thing as it would likely fail prior to ripping the hitch off the chassis which would inevitably cause more damage.

Miki · Jul 12, 2023

Eric said:
Escaped from FB, ignore may go back to FB

DCPU said:

You two gone to church to get some inspiration ?

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