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ChasingOurTrunks

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It's a bit hard to tell from looking at the photos, but for that Loch crossing that was talked about - it appears they are using a mix of snorkeled and non-snorkelled grens for that section; is that correct? I recognize the snorkel is more for dust than water, but obviously it still helps in water too, and if they are taking the Gren through water up to the upper edge of the fender without snorkels, that means they aren't worried about an errant wave swamping the motor, and that means I'm even more impressed.

I'd love to know more about how "drown proof" this thing is.
 

Jean Mercier

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... and if they are taking the Gren through water up to the upper edge of the fender without snorkels, that means they aren't worried about an errant wave swamping the motor, and that means I'm even more impressed.
If I look at the image, the wading debt is way below the fender, there is only one "wave" that seems to go over the fender. The wading debt is 80 cm, that's about the diameter of the tires. I would think they took into account "waves" of water going a little bit higher.
 
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It's a bit hard to tell from looking at the photos, but for that Loch crossing that was talked about - it appears they are using a mix of snorkeled and non-snorkelled grens for that section; is that correct? I recognize the snorkel is more for dust than water, but obviously it still helps in water too, and if they are taking the Gren through water up to the upper edge of the fender without snorkels, that means they aren't worried about an errant wave swamping the motor, and that means I'm even more impressed.

I'd love to know more about how "drown proof" this thing is.
It will float I guess the wading depth is somewhere near the floating hight (I live near a ford)
 

Chris

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It's a bit hard to tell from looking at the photos, but for that Loch crossing that was talked about - it appears they are using a mix of snorkeled and non-snorkelled grens for that section; is that correct? I recognize the snorkel is more for dust than water, but obviously it still helps in water too, and if they are taking the Gren through water up to the upper edge of the fender without snorkels, that means they aren't worried about an errant wave swamping the motor, and that means I'm even more impressed.

I'd love to know more about how "drown proof" this thing is.
Apparently the snorkel has no effect on the 800mm wading depth (y)
 

DCPU

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if they are taking the Gren through water up to the upper edge of the fender without snorkels, that means they aren't worried about an errant wave swamping the motor, and that means I'm even more impressed.

Not to take away from the fact it did what it did, but...they kept the air intake to the shore side, and with the wind being from offshore then the waves breaking on the front passenger side looked more spectacular than the photo from the other side:

Screenshot_20230126_185751.jpg
 

bemax

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Not to take away from the fact it did what it did, but...they kept the air intake to the shore side, and with the wind being from offshore then the waves breaking on the front passenger side looked more spectacular than the photo from the other side:

View attachment 7801816
I follow your arguments but would possibly not drive the through this deep water with my own car in the first week of ownership.
 

rovie

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I follow your arguments but would possibly not drive the through this deep water with my own car in the first week of ownership.
Why not? I don't understand. That's what the car is built for. What difference does it make whether you go into the water the first week or the second week?
 

bemax

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Why not? I don't understand. That's what the car is built for. What difference does it make whether you go into the water the first week or the second week?
Technically there is no difference. But I would need to loose some respect of such a situation. We are talking about a fun drive into the water where everything should be ok. But still there is a risk eg of a higher wave or a unseeable hole in the ground.
We do not talk about the one way out of a disaster area with crocodiles And thunderstorms behind you…
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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Technically there is no difference. But I would need to loose some respect of such a situation. We are talking about a fun drive into the water where everything should be ok. But still there is a risk eg of a higher wave or a unseeable hole in the ground.
We do not talk about the one way out of a disaster area with crocodiles And thunderstorms behind you…

This was my thinking too -- first, I was really pleased to see that snorkel or not, the wading capability is pretty good on this rig. But then I also look at it in the context of the entire event. This is by far the most important event Ineos has done -- every major journalist in the world of automotive news will be taking this Gren through the paces and, based on what we've pieced together, on February 8th those opinions will be revealed to the world. That's VERY high stakes; imagine if even just one of those journalists ended up "dead in the water" due to water ingress into the engine (or any manner of other issue -- electronics for instance); this would be the equivalent of TFL Trucks' Defender saga which I have no doubt firmly hampered JLR's sales of the new Defender in North America. For a rig like the Grenadier, it would be very hard to come back from those first impressions. If you look at discussions on other forums, there are already people lamenting that the Gren is "unproven" and "too technological" by a company that has no automotive experience -- nevermind Magna's involvement, or that there is a minimum amount of technology required by regulation, or that it's using parts from proven collaborators; that detail is not something the general public (even the general 4x4 enthusiast public) are aware of, and so bad press on this first launch has the potential to be a disaster. In this day and age, a viral Tik-Tok/Instagram/Reddit disaster.

But, Ineos has taken Snorkelled and Non-Snorkelled trucks through a proper wade -- not the most difficult one in the word of course, but it's a far cry from the artificial stream/mudpit dug with a backhoe that the JLR experience provides folks when they launch a new rig. There's way more real-world variables in what Ineos is doing on this demo trip -- the car ahead could dislodge a large rock, leaving a pothole that causes the following Gren to drop a fender way below water level; a Journalist can get a bit steer-happy and go into deeper water; even day-to-day conditions on the lake can change the depth of that water crossing (i.e. higher winds). So, over the course of several weeks, Ineos is doing a regular real-world water crossing that comes close to threatening the max wading depth of the rig (and far exceeds the "approved" wading depth of all but a couple of other cars on the market).

The point of all this rambling is: If I were a decisionmaker in Ineos, I wouldn't be going near that kind of a water crossing unless I was supremely confident in the vehicle. The risk of damage from any kind of failure is too great, and this abundance of confidence I think says more about the rig than the photos in the water do.

And, I still want to know how these things drown, because at some point that's going to happen to someone. Can I pull the plugs, drain the oil, and continue on my way like I can with some of the classics? Or does drowning it mean I'm reaching for the InReach? We won't know for some time but the confidence I'm talking about above makes me hopeful about the answer.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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If I look at the image, the wading debt is way below the fender, there is only one "wave" that seems to go over the fender. The wading debt is 80 cm, that's about the diameter of the tires. I would think they took into account "waves" of water going a little bit higher.

I fully agree about them taking into account waves in the design, Jean, and I think you are spot on -- I was referring to the waves in the video that Stickshifter posted previously where you can see the waves lapping up at just below the height of the fender. I wouldn't say it's way below the fenders necessarily, but it's the waves in particular that are splashing over the hood and fender that I was referencing. Like I said above it's not the worst water crossing I've ever seen (I've quoted the video below) but it's a good bit more impressive than the competition.

Wow - that was a significant water crossing. This is the first video of the Grenadier that I find truly impressive. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but everything else I've seen it do has left me with the same reaction, which is "Sure, that's what a solid axle, off-road vehicle with a low-range transfer case should be able to do." I haven't seen the vehicle really pushed yet in the rocks, and I've done enough technical rock crawling that I've been a bit disappointed with the off-road videos. This was great! Maybe they are just getting warmed up.


For comparison, this is how brave Jeep is when talking about their products ability to do water crossings; very much a more conservative presentation of capabilities than Ineos has chosen (taken directly from the Jeep.com website)

WaterCrossing.png
 

Solmanic

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It will be interesting to see if this type of imagery makes it into the mainstream media promotion of the Grenadier here in Australia. We have a lot of problems every year with people driving into flood waters, so much so there are government ad campaigns in most states warning against it. If we ever do see a photo like this published here I'm sure it will have half of the bottom of the image obscured by lines and lines of legal copy & disclaimers.
 

globalgregors

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I fully agree about them taking into account waves in the design, Jean, and I think you are spot on -- I was referring to the waves in the video that Stickshifter posted previously where you can see the waves lapping up at just below the height of the fender. I wouldn't say it's way below the fenders necessarily, but it's the waves in particular that are splashing over the hood and fender that I was referencing. Like I said above it's not the worst water crossing I've ever seen (I've quoted the video below) but it's a good bit more impressive than the competition.



For comparison, this is how brave Jeep is when talking about their products ability to do water crossings; very much a more conservative presentation of capabilities than Ineos has chosen (taken directly from the Jeep.com website)

View attachment 7801836
LOL... indeed those "deceivingly deep puddles" are an underestimated peril. Nice to see a manufacturer responding.
 

AnD3rew

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Apparently the snorkel has no effect on the 800mm wading depth (y)
It’s a raised air intake not a snorkel, so not being sealed it won’t provide significantly more protection from drowning than without. But even a sealed snorkel doesn’t change wading depth as there are a number of other factors involved including electrics/electrinics and alternator, diff breathers, and floatation, the point at which you stop being a car and start (temporarily) being a boat.
 

ChasingOurTrunks

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It’s a raised air intake not a snorkel, so not being sealed it won’t provide significantly more protection from drowning than without. But even a sealed snorkel doesn’t change wading depth as there are a number of other factors involved including electrics/electrinics and alternator, diff breathers, and floatation, the point at which you stop being a car and start (temporarily) being a boat.

Absolutely - I use the terms interchangeably as snorkel tends to be the more common term for that part in everyday language, and these days I'm not sure any modern car actually has a "true" snorkel for water crossings so I feel like the definition of that has evolved a bit over time. But any snorkel/raised intake does help reduce water ingress into the engine in the conditions like we've seen the Ineos in. A random wave without a snorkel means a greater risk of water into the airbox and hydrolocking the engine; as folks here likely know, there's always a 'suction' effect in those airboxes that mean it doesn't take much contact with water to cause problems. The same wave on vehicle with a raised intake might only get a drop or two, even if that's not fully sealed as the bulk of the 'suction' effect is up out of the water. As you said it doesn't change the actual wading depth because of other components, but in real-world use it does reduce the risk of hydrolock a bit when those "oops" moments strike.

But regardless, my point is that if I was putting myself in the shoes of Ineos's decision maker, the safe bet would be to say "Given the waves are lapping at the fenders and coming close to the wading depth, only the rigs equipped with the raised air intake should do the water crossing, just in case we get a random big wave". Instead they are saying "Yeah go for it. 800 mm is 800 mm, and to @Jean Mercier's point, we've designed it to withstand a bit deeper so we know it'll work". So as above - that confidence is good news for us future owners.

Put another way, I wouldn't take a brand new Jeep Gladiator/Wrangler through that depth of water without a raised intake. With a raised intake, I'd think about it, and might even do it, but it would be a game-time decision. With the Grenadier, after some of those videos, I'd be confident enough to drive it off the lot and into a lake!

the-machine-knows-machine.gif
 

DCPU

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Another 14 days of epic off-road and on-road adventures. 😯 that’s a long media/press event. Look forward to the 8th feb 👍🏼
Just crunching the numbers.

28 days in total
2 days per "expedition"
20 vehicles (excluding support)
Between 1 and 4 journalists per vehicle

At the top end we could end up having to wade our way through 1,120 reviews.

Hopefully, they don't all say the same things. 😬
 
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DCPU

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"Given the waves are lapping at the fenders and coming close to the wading depth,
I think the photo amply illustrates that the water was nowhere near the wading depth in the one place that the metric has real significance ~ at the actual air intake.

It's the wading equivalent of sawing a person in half ~ mostly an optical illusion. The Grenadier was acting as a mobile breakwater so there was never any chance of any of those waves getting into the air intake.

It was not by chance that they drove in the direction they did. Nobody came back the other way.
 

DCPU

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imagine if even just one of those journalists ended up "dead in the water" due to water ingress into the engine (or any manner of other issue -- electronics for instance); this would be the equivalent of TFL Trucks' Defender saga which I have no doubt firmly hampered JLR's sales of the new Defender in North America.
I'd respectfully disagree. The type of journalist that gets invited to these events rarely bite the hand that feeds them.

At the new Defender launch in Namibia, one journalist broke a lower control arm, and they had to do a bush repair by cutting up a high lift jack (score one for the hi lift jack supporters) but not one of those on the trip mentioned it in copious online copy. It wasn't until well after the event a few photos leaked out:
on8rmijg16mtupmwpguf.jpg

The TFL example is a case in point, in that they were spending their own money on test vehicles and so had complete editorial freedom to say what they want. I don't think they get invited to many manufacturer press days.

But, Ineos has taken Snorkelled and Non-Snorkelled trucks through a proper wade -- not the most difficult one in the word of course
I struggle to call this a "proper" wade; but probably in a different sense to that in which you are suggesting. Yes it was a reasonable depth, but it was entirely an artificial wade in the sense they didn't need to do it to get anywhere. Evidenced by the fact you could see they returned by driving along the beach/foreshore.

If a group out there for a weekend drive did this, it would be labelled as irresponsible at best and possibly subject to legal penalty.

"Dirt, brake dust, traffic film residue and oil that is washed off are all pollutants.
Any cleaning agents you use (including those labelled biodegradable or traffic film removers) are very poisonous to river/marine life. If you cause pollution, you are breaking the law and spoiling your environment." quoted from the UK Environment Agency pollution prevention guidelines.

but it's a far cry from the artificial stream/mudpit dug with a backhoe that the JLR experience provides folks when they launch a new rig.
This is the equivalent event for the launch of the new Defender in Namibia:
normal_ER-R5w7W4AY251c.jpg
 

Wayneos

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Lord knows why?
I want a solid dependable off roader, but I don’t want to go back to the 1970’s.

I have no problem manually winding up a window. Less electrical stuff to go wrong. I admit controlling the rear and passenger windows electrically is handy, but I don't need the drivers window to be electric.
 
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