3rd party Videos Prototype Review - Jonathan Hanson

DaveB · Jan 8, 2023

emax said:
Not your fault. This happens if a manufacturer doen't stick to his own design. I call it then bad cockpit design. Or more precise: bad cockpit designers.

You may like the Mercedes or not. But the basic levers and switches in the car have since decades remained the same. If you know one model, you know them all.

This is a picture of my centre console and I think it is ridiculous considering most of the functions are repeated on the steering wheel and again there is a wheel perfectly placed near the centre rest to use the HMI panel.
In the top section I have used the on button maybe twice, as it is always on, but haven't touched any of the other buttons
Second row Every time I get in I turn off the parking assistance and the ECO and turn on the dynamic suspension which is in he place of the sport button.
I don't have heated or cooled seats.
The bottom section I have occasionally used the front and rear demister, but as I park in a garage that is extremely rare.
Generally the temperature dials just sit on 22 degrees and aircon is always on.
The last button I hit is to put the gearbox into sport mode as it defaults to economy.

So all the rest of those buttons are a waste of space and they could have made the useful ones larger

JOB · Jan 8, 2023

A really enjoyable review and great to see the author making his way to this forum. It’s good to see.

I can understand the point about the ceiling mounted buttons but vehicle familiarity will soon outweigh the initial strangeness after a few hours behind the wheel. After all, people managed with Citroen CXs!

Personally it won’t matter to me as I haven’t ordered front and rear lockers. My Grenadier will spend most of its life on the road, with probably only mild off road use when necessitated by my work and plenty of towing. I currently run a A6 Allroad for reference and that car has all the off-road ability I need.

What matters most to me, and I’m pleased to see mention of it in this review, is the quality of design, construction and manufacture of the vehicle. I want something that is built to last, and competent beyond what I need. That’s why my favourite vehicles are Mercedes-Benz built from the 70s-early 90s!

jrchrds · Jan 8, 2023

DCPU said:
@Jonathan Hanson - nice to see you replying to the comments.

The point with regard to the lockers has been raised before, in terms of generally looking up at all the switches and trying to read the icons. It's a real issue, especially for anyone with varifocals and we know the Grenadier demographic is going to contain a high percentage. So there might be some challenge here but perhaps a silent majority nodding?

Ehhh- as a helicopter guy that regularly manipulates panels of switches and circuit breakers with labels that no longer conform to my post retirement eyes, I think you can learn to find the appropriate switch. Particularly with how large, the unique button shapes, and the switch guards as physical clue. I actually think they did pretty will at taking the time to make each button set physically identifiable without having to look at the buttons. I'd love to see each of those panels backlit additionally (I'm fairly sure they are not) so that may be something I do later on.

DaveB · Jan 8, 2023

jrchrds said:
Ehhh- as a helicopter guy that regularly manipulates panels of switches and circuit breakers with labels that no longer conform to my post retirement eyes, I think you can learn to find the appropriate switch. Particularly with how large, the unique button shapes, and the switch guards as physical clue. I actually think they did pretty will at taking the time to make each button set physically identifiable without having to look at the buttons. I'd love to see each of those panels backlit additionally (I'm fairly sure they are not) so that may be something I do later on.

There is a picture in the media section that shows the illumination of the overhead panel.
I think the lights in the switches are a yellow/amber colour from memory

Jeremy996 · Jan 8, 2023

DaveB said:
Yes I had to do that on an issue Ruger mini14 and a Remington pump action shotgun.
Sidearm was a revolver so nothing to strip there but had to reload without looking with speedloader and speed strip.

I'm old and British, so the equivalent was 7.62 SLR. The driving equivalent was Land Rover Series III 109, (lots of sharp edges and not many controls).

jrchrds · Jan 8, 2023

DaveB said:
There is a picture in the media section that shows the illumination of the overhead panel.
I think the lights in the switches are a yellow/amber colour from memory

Oh nice, I hadn't seen that picture yet.

Tazzieman · Jan 8, 2023

I'm pleased that Porche 911SC , Landrover S3 and old Benzes have been mentioned in this thread. I still own all 3 , chosen for the solidity and logic of no frills last century engineering .
I'm sure Sir JR wanted that ethos running through the Grenny's arteries and veins.
Onward and upward!

Jean Mercier · Jan 8, 2023

Tazzieman said:
I'm pleased that Porche 911SC , Landrover S3 and old Benzes have been mentioned in this thread. I still own all 3 ,

You must be rich

Well, anybody who can afford a Grenadier isn't poor either

With all respect for people who can't afford and would like to have one, I was lucky in my life, but never won the lottery

Tazzieman · Jan 8, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
You must be rich

No, just smart, and a salaried worker paying 45% tax with no deductions.
The Land Rover was bought for $1. It had been sitting idle in the bush for 19 years. I restored it myself on my driveway. No garage.
The 2 Benzes were bought for $4k. The guy insisted he had to get sell both (his wife made him do it). On the transfer papers , the 2nd one was bought for "$1"
The Porsche was bought relatively cheaply in 2009, before the boom in values. I managed to convince the bank to do a novated lease over 5 years. Over that 5 years I replaced all old rubber and improved other areas, in pre tax $. The labour was free, as I am a DIYer.
Each of the cars can be driven 104 days each year. registration and insurance is cheap.
It sucks to live in Tasmania

DaveB · Jan 8, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
You must be rich
Well, anybody who can afford a Grenadier isn't poor either
With all respect for people who can't afford and would like to have one, I was lucky in my life, but never won the lottery

I lost my house and job in the recession we had to have back in 1990 and had to start again.
Then when the Global Financial crisis hit in 2008 I lost my house again and also 3 companies I owned. (cash flow)
I went to WA to work fly in fly out and by 2012 I had enough money for a deposit on a house and took a normal job back home.
We renovated that house and sold it in 2016 to make a good profit.
2016 we purchase this house as a small 3 bed home and we have just finished renovating it to make it a large 6 bedroom home with a pool.
Photographer is coming this afternoon to take pictures, and aerial shots so we can list it for sale this week.
Not going to be rich but hard/smart work and never give up approach will get you there in the end.

Jean Mercier · Jan 8, 2023

DaveB said:
Not going to be rich but hard/smart work and never give up approach will get you there in the end.

I don't own my house, I rent it. I still have to pay an allowance for my ex wife (mother of my kids), but worked hard too.
I have now enough for a Grenadier (always wanted a Toyota Landcruiser but couldn't afford or didn't dare to 10 years ago).
And then came the Grenadier ... I can afford now, and don't want to die with a lot of money on my bank account.

My 3 kids are doing well, and if necessary I can help them in a moderate way.

DaveB · Jan 8, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
I don't own my house, I rent it. I still have to pay an allowance for my ex wife (mother of my kids), but worked hard too.
I have now enough for a Grenadier (always wanted a Toyota Landcruiser but couldn't afford or didn't dare to 10 years ago).
And then came the Grenadier ... I can afford now, and don't want to die with a lot of money on my bank account.
My 3 kids are doing well, and if necessary I can help them in a moderate way.

Yes
No point being the richest man in the cemetery
I have two mortgages totaling $1.5 Million so in a way I also rent from the bank

Tazzieman · Jan 8, 2023

DaveB said:
No point being the richest man in the cemetery

If I live to 96 (my father is hanging on) there will be no money left for a burial!
It kinda sucks not knowing how much money you "need" .
I certainly haven't got enough for another 36 years. But who wants to look at boring share portfolios?
Get the Grenadier and just go for it!

Methos · Jan 9, 2023

stickshifter said:
I'll repeat what I said in my first post - I think it was a great review, and I really enjoyed reading it. I'm excited about the Grenadier, and I think it looks like it is going to be a vehicle that - in terms of production quality and durability - will be vastly superior to the Wrangler. But when it comes to flex, the Wrangler is best in class. In the photos below, the Grenadier is lifting its front right tire - there is very little droop; look at the angle of the front axle. In the photo below that, the front right tire of the Wrangler is still touching the ground (which is what you want) despite the incredible angle of the front axle. Yes, the anti-sway bar is certainly disconnected on the Jeep, but the difference is enormous. Can't wait until we get some good objective test results like the Ramp Travel Index (RTI).

Ineos has reported an RTI of 585 on a 20 degree ramp in the brochure (link).

Tazzieman · Jan 9, 2023

Methos said:
Ineos has reported an RTI of 585 on a 20 degree ramp in the brochure (link).

Here's some old figures ; 20 degree ramp
My Disco 1 is the same (stock) as the Ig , + a 2" lift

Krabby · Jan 9, 2023

Interesting table. I’m pretty sure the 1st wrangler listed references that 1st generation wrangler that still had leaf springs. Otherwise that would be hard to understand.

If IA can put a stock rig of its size, weight and build on par with a mid-90s Defender, Disco and RRC, they’ve met a fine standard.

stickshifter · Jan 9, 2023

Tazzieman said:
Here's some old figures ; 20 degree ramp
My Disco 1 is the same (stock) as the Ig , + a 2" lift

View attachment 7799880

Good find @Methos - I just found it in the brochure after you mentioned it - so thanks for posting.

According to the article below:

The current Wrangler has an RTI score of 532 with the anti-sway bar connected, and 701 with it disconnected.

The current Ford Bronco has an RTI score of 498 with the anti-sway bar connected, and 627 with it disconnected.

Those old Range Rovers were really flexy. I wonder what the current gen is - not very good I fear. Likewise, the new Defender works its way through obstacles using computer-controlled traction - not using good suspension travel - so I doubt the RTI score for the Defender is very good either.

But an RTI score of 585 for the Grenadier is really good - better than I expected. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it looks like Ineos improved suspension travel between the first prototypes and the product we have today. Its really good to see signs of continual improvement. That speaks very highly of their commitment to the project.

The Grenadier was tested on a 20-degree ramp, I wonder what the ramp was used in the test below (RTI scores on 30-degree ramps are lower).

Can the 2021 Ford Bronco Out-Flex the Jeep Wrangler?

Can the Ford Bronco flex more than the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon? We test them all on the RTI ramp!

www.motortrend.com

Here is a long list of RTI scores for a whole bunch of older off-road rigs. Some surprises for sure - like 653 for a stock 1981 Chevy Blazer.

RTI Ramp - Ramp Travel Index Score - What is it, what does it tell you?

www.offroaders.com

DCPU · Jan 9, 2023

stickshifter said:
Those old Range Rovers were really flexy. I wonder what the current gen is - not very good I fear.

More akin to sailing when making progress on B roads:

Not sure on current gen, but previous versions had ACE (active cornering enhancement) which was a hydraulic anti-roll system. Sort of like the reverse of Jeep sway bar disconnect.

Jonathan Hanson · Jan 10, 2023

Stickshifter, thanks for the chart and comparisons! I'm happy to see it confirm my seat-of-the-pants impressions. I hadn't seen an RTI number for the Grenadier before.

OGrid · Jan 10, 2023

Jonathan Hanson said:
Stickshifter, thanks for the chart and comparisons! I'm happy to see it confirm my seat-of-the-pants impressions. I hadn't seen an RTI number for the Grenadier before.

The forum is forensic level. Great hey.

If we don’t know the answer now someone will find it soon enough (or be told by Ineos support an answer, which another Ineos support rep will later disagree with, rinse repeat…which is why Justin H’s comments are priceless).

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3rd party Videos Prototype Review - Jonathan Hanson

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Can the 2021 Ford Bronco Out-Flex the Jeep Wrangler?

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