Creating a shift lever worthy of the Grenadier

[255/85]

Your points regarding shifter ergonomics jumped out at me upon seeing the Grenadier interior layout for the first time in January 2023 (reservation placed in Feb. 2023 - still no vehicle). The taller you sit the worse the angle of your arm. It's nearly all notoriously weak and inaccurate anterior deltoid muscle control when reaching forward for initial contact with the shifter. In fact it's the same for the whole center stack but don't get me started. The shifter itself requires diminutive and nuanced manipulation completely at odds with a vehicle intended to be driven in potentially stressful situations where quick gear changes may be required to avert disaster. I have been noted for having a surgeon's level of coordination and hand dexterity and I find the shifter mechanism exhausting. Perhaps I will adjust to it in time.

For those of us with long arms the center console lid also blocks comfortable access to the shifter and I will likely be giving up the locking feature by removing the same. My partner, who is of average height, immediately commented on the terrible placement of the console within two minutes after beginning her test drive of the vehicle. She asked if we couldn't order the vehicle with the lidless Utility version of the cubby. Ineos said "no".

In the thread entitled Buzz Overland - Gutted Grenadier I asked the OP for pictures of the stripped center console area. I had hoped to one day stumble upon a bolt in swap for the stock ZF shifter perhaps from something as common as a Jeep Wrangler or other. I believe Jeeps use a licensed version of the same transmission.

Barring the total replacement option, anything that makes using the weird ultrasound wand of a shifter easier to use is a plus in my book. If I might suggest a small alteration it would be to forgo the red lambda and instead indicate the gear positions on the face of the shifter. A simple and clear schematic will be vey helpful to anyone driving the vehicle that is unfamiliar with the layout. A window through to the lighted indications might be simpler still and wouldn't affect comfort or ergonomics to any appreciable degree.

 

[Tazzieman]

X1z2

This one recently caught my attention. Was also impressed at the legroom found in the Typhoon when compared to Grenadier

But no cupholders. Design oversight!

 

[Cheshire cat]

X1z2

But no cupholders. Design oversight!

But in common with the Grenadier, service manuals are difficult to get hold of.

 

[terdrocket]

This is interesting, but does not solve the one operational aspect that bugs me.
While on the highway if I manually downshift to pass, but forget that I am in drive and not slotted over into manual mode, the transmission will shift into the neutral position.
At highway speed, without pushing the button, in auto/D, the vehicle will go into neutral by simply bumping the handle forward. Thankfully pulling the handle back puts the vehicle back into drive. In this case, I think that the side button should be required to move to neutral.
However, in an auto carwash, in neutral, the vehicle will not bump back into drive unless the brake is applied. This is not great while on a moving track with cars stacked behind.
I still love this thing though.

 

[BenTN]

For feedback sake, aesthetically, the version with the enclosed P button looks better/cleaner IMO than the seat belt cutter looking, open version. Is there a functional reason the enclosed prototype was dropped?

Reminds me vaguely of the throttle of an aircraft, which goes along with the switch panels of the IG.

I’d imagine the gap between the cover and the base of the shifter is going to be a dust/crumb/debris catcher if left uncovered.

High marks for thinking outside the box. Good luck.

The enclosed 'P' version worked fine and looked better, I agree. However the circular opening created a bit of a hole that you had to stick your thumb down into. My thumb fit fine but I was concerned that a gloved hand (or just plain fat thumbs) would find it awkward. Ultimately we stuck with this "seat-belt cutter" shape after driving the car and realizing that the wedge-shaped opening very effectively guides your thumb to the 'P' button and makes the experience better. It's quicker and more strongly tactile.

I like the aircraft throttle comparison.

The crumb-catching gap is unchanged from the original shifter. The mechanism does not seem to lend itself to a boot or other means of closing that up.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[BenTN]

@BenTN. Thanks for sharing the design process. One change if possible is making it more of a slant that starts from your pointer finger to your pinky. For example stick out your hand plam down. Now rotate your hand with your thumb at the 10 o'clock position. Now grab the imaginary shifter. It's natural. The shifter is still flat but more contoured to fit the natural flow of the hand.

What you describe is very much the goal of our design. There are some practical limitations to how 'flat' the top can get though without getting too wide. A problem appears when extending to the left because that pulls your thumb away from comfortable access to the Unlock button. A problem appears when extending too far to the right because it gets close to the transfer case lever. This can cause the trans to be bumped into Manual mode accidentally while unlocking the center diff (shifting transfer case lever to the left). This is only a problem for LHD vehicles.

Where we landed with the prototype shown below is the best compromise we have achieved thus far. My hand feels like it is in that 10 o'clock position you describe. The arc shape of the top feels natural in my palm.



Thanks for the input!

 

[TelRidan]

Part 4: Progress and Plans

With the detailed CAD data sorted out and the ergonomics working well, we are now playing with the style elements and manufacturing details. This is the phase where sufficient prototype iterations really pay off. Every day we 3D-print new shapes and textures to improve the feel and look of certain details about the shifter. I think it is coming along nicely. The pic below shows some recent sketches and a small prototype that we used to improve the blend between a couple faces where the texture changes. These details may seem trivial but when your hand touches this edge multiple times a day it matters.
View attachment 7855243

We have created a few possible variations worth mentioning:
- with inset red lambda
- with PRND/M indication exposed
- with a location for the Global Grenadiers (forum) badge to reside
- all sorts of color variations

It's not too late to give input on your favorite design elements.

View attachment 7855244

I'm not sure what exactly comes at the end of this project. It is a great training and development exercise for me and the staff at our office, so we will definitely see it through to a "final" version. Of course final is relative, since we could continue to improve or create variations forever. As a good friend likes to say: "At some point you have to shoot the engineer and go into production." But first we might do a "focus group" test and send a batch of these out to forum members and get their feedback.

I don't know if there is market justification for an injection molded version of this design. Tooling (mold) investment for US manufacturing of the cosmetic housings for both LHD and RHD vehicles is expensive. (Hmmm, perhaps I have come to the same conclusion that Ineos did...) Ultimately I might consider running batches of these as a 3D-printed product for a while. If there is sufficient interest maybe Stu will distribute them via the forum store, like we did with the reverse camera glare shrouds.

It's been a fun project so far.

View attachment 7855242

I'm in as a tester if you decide to go that route, and I do like the ergonomic and aesthetic addition. It is certainly more in keeping with the "vibe" of the Grenadier interior.

 

[dreamalaska]

This one recently caught my attention. Was also impressed at the legroom found in the Typhoon when compared to Grenadier

You mean you could stretch your left leg? Novel idea …

 

[crashnburn]

I'd be interested as a tester too.
My right hand is experiencing symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome and I'd like to see if this fits me.

Also, I do like the industrial design look.

Have you done something with your console?
It looks matte in color, unless, it is just the light angle making it look matte.

Cheers!

 

[ADVAW8S]

@BenTN. Perfect, I was hoping that we could slim down the wedge so it looks more in line with this prototype. But with your natural thumb movement from unlock to park.

 

[Jackattack13]

@BenTN. Perfect, I was hoping that we could slim down the wedge so it looks more in line with this prototype. But with your natural thumb movement from unlock to park.

I am a fan of both. I really like the one ADVAW8S highlighted. I like the aesthetic of the window openings so we can push buttons and see the current selection. I would be interested in testing and giving feedback. Would be cool to see one of those wrapped in leather or vegan leather and reinstalled. Or, a finish applied to remove the 3D printing lines. Good work. I am loving the ingenuity of Gren owners to overcome these small problems.

 

[Jiman01]

The enclosed 'P' version worked fine and looked better, I agree. However the circular opening created a bit of a hole that you had to stick your thumb down into. My thumb fit fine but I was concerned that a gloved hand (or just plain fat thumbs) would find it awkward. Ultimately we stuck with this "seat-belt cutter" shape after driving the car and realizing that the wedge-shaped opening very effectively guides your thumb to the 'P' button and makes the experience better. It's quicker and more strongly tactile.

I like the aircraft throttle comparison.

The crumb-catching gap is unchanged from the original shifter. The mechanism does not seem to lend itself to a boot or other means of closing that up.

Thanks for the feedback.

Maybe it would add more complexity/cost than it’s worth regarding the enclosed “P” but what if you added a rubber boot, like you might find on the tail switch of a flashlight, or an extension similar to how cell phone cases have their case buttons interface with the actual phone.

Just throwing out ideas for consideration.

 

[Max]

Maybe it would add more complexity/cost than it’s worth regarding the enclosed “P” but what if you added a rubber boot, like you might find on the tail switch of a flashlight, or an extension similar to how cell phone cases have their case buttons interface with the actual phone.

Just throwing out ideas for consideration.

Here in Queensland, the cane toad capital of Australia...I have thrown the idea out to the Bush Mechanics...they have a handle on it

 

[Cheshire cat]

Here in Queensland, the cane toad capital of Australia...I have thrown the idea out to the Bush Mechanics...they have a handle on it

Had to put my glasses on to check what he was actually holding. Had me worried for a moment.

 

[Shopkeep]

Part 4: Progress and Plans

With the detailed CAD data sorted out and the ergonomics working well, we are now playing with the style elements and manufacturing details. This is the phase where sufficient prototype iterations really pay off. Every day we 3D-print new shapes and textures to improve the feel and look of certain details about the shifter. I think it is coming along nicely. The pic below shows some recent sketches and a small prototype that we used to improve the blend between a couple faces where the texture changes. These details may seem trivial but when your hand touches this edge multiple times a day it matters.
View attachment 7855243

We have created a few possible variations worth mentioning:
- with inset red lambda
- with PRND/M indication exposed
- with a location for the Global Grenadiers (forum) badge to reside
- all sorts of color variations

It's not too late to give input on your favorite design elements.

View attachment 7855244

I'm not sure what exactly comes at the end of this project. It is a great training and development exercise for me and the staff at our office, so we will definitely see it through to a "final" version. Of course final is relative, since we could continue to improve or create variations forever. As a good friend likes to say: "At some point you have to shoot the engineer and go into production." But first we might do a "focus group" test and send a batch of these out to forum members and get their feedback.

I don't know if there is market justification for an injection molded version of this design. Tooling (mold) investment for US manufacturing of the cosmetic housings for both LHD and RHD vehicles is expensive. (Hmmm, perhaps I have come to the same conclusion that Ineos did...) Ultimately I might consider running batches of these as a 3D-printed product for a while. If there is sufficient interest maybe Stu will distribute them via the forum store, like we did with the reverse camera glare shrouds.

It's been a fun project so far.

View attachment 7855242

Love your work, if its not going to be a commercial product would be great if you could upload or provide a link to the STL or 3D file so we can print and play at home.

 

[Max]

Here in Queensland, the cane toad capital of Australia...I have thrown the idea out to the Bush Mechanics...they have a handle on it

Seriously though the lever is as close to the computer mouse that we have lived with now for so long...one size fits all male, female, and child...
with smooth non-aggressive shapes that are easily moved back, forward, and side to side...I use my thumb, fore, and middle fingers...if you haven't articulation in your wrist, there is a problem...if the gearbox is manual give me the 8 ball

 

[DaveB]

Your points regarding shifter ergonomics jumped out at me upon seeing the Grenadier interior layout for the first time in January 2023 (reservation placed in Feb. 2023 - still no vehicle). The taller you sit the worse the angle of your arm. It's nearly all notoriously weak and inaccurate anterior deltoid muscle control when reaching forward for initial contact with the shifter. In fact it's the same for the whole center stack but don't get me started. The shifter itself requires diminutive and nuanced manipulation completely at odds with a vehicle intended to be driven in potentially stressful situations where quick gear changes may be required to avert disaster. I have been noted for having a surgeon's level of coordination and hand dexterity and I find the shifter mechanism exhausting. Perhaps I will adjust to it in time.

For those of us with long arms the center console lid also blocks comfortable access to the shifter and I will likely be giving up the locking feature by removing the same. My partner, who is of average height, immediately commented on the terrible placement of the console within two minutes after beginning her test drive of the vehicle. She asked if we couldn't order the vehicle with the lidless Utility version of the cubby. Ineos said "no".

In the thread entitled Buzz Overland - Gutted Grenadier I asked the OP for pictures of the stripped center console area. I had hoped to one day stumble upon a bolt in swap for the stock ZF shifter perhaps from something as common as a Jeep Wrangler or other. I believe Jeeps use a licensed version of the same transmission.

Barring the total replacement option, anything that makes using the weird ultrasound wand of a shifter easier to use is a plus in my book. If I might suggest a small alteration it would be to forgo the red lambda and instead indicate the gear positions on the face of the shifter. A simple and clear schematic will be vey helpful to anyone driving the vehicle that is unfamiliar with the layout. A window through to the lighted indications might be simpler still and wouldn't affect comfort or ergonomics to any appreciable degree.

How often do you use the shifter when driving??
Start it, put it in drive, drive off.

 

[Shopkeep]

How often do you use the shifter when driving??
Start it, put it in drive, drive off.

Yeah, but it looks like merde.

 

[DaveB]

Yeah, but it looks like merde.

I think we did the gearstick story to death about 2 years ago.

 

[255/85]

How often do you use the shifter when driving??
Start it, put it in drive, drive off.

I make a lot of wrong turns and have to back up often. I really should get a GPS device.

In all seriousness my Grenadier driving experience is limited to a handful of test drives so maybe I won't hate the shifter so much after a while. There are a lot of dead ends and old logging skids leading nowhere here in the woods. It's not uncommon to have to reverse out for hundreds of yards.