Two Questions

[FlyingTrotter]

As I step away from the project having cancelled my order I wanted to raise two questions in part as they were gnawing away and also because I have a foldness for the project and am interested in peoples thoughts

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition

and in a sense linked to that

- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

I followed the project pretty much from launch and made an early reservation - went on a test drive of a prototype etc

I did not make an on launch order as i was rather disconcerted by the launch and the projection of the approach to subsequent service / support - but returned to the brand after a dalliance with a JLR offering and made an order in May cancelled after a test drive of a production ready demo which others reviewing post may have seen

with that preliminary intro on to the questions

- in the lead up to launch I had understood the target price point to be £50k in GPB (or maybe £55k which was my working number) - the car as specified that I ordered in May 2023 was nearer to £75k - is that a workable value proportion in the competitive market we are now in with the shadow of decarbonisation/ICE demonisation ?

- when ordering I like many that post on this excellent forum had in mind that the IG would be a long term purchase that I might keep for 10 year or more - how does that sit with (1) the challenges all major automotive companies are facing as ICE is force to give way to EV of various types and (2) with the company being so closely associated with the ideology of the founder and current owner who may not be around/ in control for the intended life of the vehicles IA are producing ?

I would welcome the views of the forum members

 

[DaveB]

As I step away from the project having cancelled my order I wanted to raise two questions in part as they were gnawing away and also because I have a foldness for the project and am interested in peoples thoughts

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition

and in a sense linked to that

- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

I followed the project pretty much from launch and made an early reservation - went on a test drive of a prototype etc

I did not make an on launch order as i was rather disconcerted by the launch and the projection of the approach to subsequent service / support - but returned to the brand after a dalliance with a JLR offering and made an order in May cancelled after a test drive of a production ready demo which others reviewing post may have seen

with that preliminary intro on to the questions

- in the lead up to launch I had understood the target price point to be £50k in GPB (or maybe £55k which was my working number) - the car as specified that I ordered in May 2023 was nearer to £75k - is that a workable value proportion in the competitive market we are now in with the shadow of decarbonisation/ICE demonisation ?

- when ordering I like many that post on this excellent forum had in mind that the IG would be a long term purchase that I might keep for 10 year or more - how does that sit with (1) the challenges all major automotive companies are facing as ICE is force to give way to EV of various types and (2) with the company being so closely associated with the ideology of the founder and current owner who may not be around/ in control for the intended life of the vehicles IA are producing ?

I would welcome the views of the forum members

I only learned it existed in March 2022 and on researching I joined this forum on 19th March
I had no preconceived thoughts on what the price would/should be.
I looked at the component suppliers involved and Magna and was impressed.
The alternatives that I was looking at were priced from AUD$100K to AUD$150K and my configuration come to AUD$133K initially.
Once they removed the Luxury car tax it went down to AUD$121K and in July I placed my order
I took it for a test drive in Perth and was very impressed both offroad and on tar at 80kmh+
I took it for an offroad only drive at Mt Tamborine in Queensland a few months later and was still very impressed.
I have test driven all of the possible alternatives and none of them excited or interested me anywhere near as much.
I knew there would be some issues and still hold confidence they will be fixed.

 

[CountyV8]

Been driving one for 2 months you might be dead tomorrow . Enjoy it now

 

[Bruce]

In the US, you don't have any real alternatives. The LC300 isn't coming here and the 70 series never did. The JLR products are all too posh and the G wagen is an abomination with its quilted seats and 20 speakers. The Wrangler and bronco are as close as you get, and they aren't without problems. I have a 4runner, which is ok. Reliable, sure, but it's less efficient, ugly, and more cheaply built than the Ineos.

Yes, the Grenadier is more than I thought it would be, but I'd rather have it than a 25 year old LC70 import, a 200 series that I have to build out, or a pickup. The extra 10k I'm spending over what I imagined is worth having the truck built on purpose, especially with how all car prices have blown up since the beginning of the project.

 

[emax]

The problem is that predictions are difficult because they concern the future.

So the question is what is the fun factor worth to you or others? Having 10 years of fun and enjoyment driving a great car is worth a lot, especially when the rest of your life may not be more than 30 years.

And in general, as I have also written twice on this forum: Buying a Grenadier is not for the faint of heart.

 

[Loc Nar]

As I step away from the project having cancelled my order I wanted to raise two questions in part as they were gnawing away and also because I have a foldness for the project and am interested in peoples thoughts

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition

I expected the Trialmaster version, which is what I wanted, would be $75,000, and I thought it would be worth it at that price. It came in at $79,190. So, it was about 5% more than I thought it would be. I did not like that, but can grit my teeth and live with it.

and in a sense linked to that

- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

You've watched all of the development videos and information and you have done your research. This does not seem like a fly by night level of commitment. This project is driven by passion and a desire to succeed. Ineos/Ratcliffe have invested a lot of personal capital in this project. That helped instill initial confidence. That initial confidence is currently shaken by all of the gremlins and assembly errors we have seen properly highlighted and called out on this forum. Ineos *appears* to be paying proper attention to this with the customer survey questionnaire, the promise of a software update around the corner, and recalls on the horizon. I'm willing to give them time to work that out, particularly since I did not have to put down any additional money to place a pre-order and we in the States will be essentially getting model year two of the vehicle. I very much appreciate all of the excellent feedback that has been provided by those who have already acquired the vehicle.

I followed the project pretty much from launch and made an early reservation - went on a test drive of a prototype etc

I did not make an on launch order as i was rather disconcerted by the launch and the projection of the approach to subsequent service / support - but returned to the brand after a dalliance with a JLR offering and made an order in May cancelled after a test drive of a production ready demo which others reviewing post may have seen

with that preliminary intro on to the questions

- in the lead up to launch I had understood the target price point to be £50k in GPB (or maybe £55k which was my working number) - the car as specified that I ordered in May 2023 was nearer to £75k - is that a workable value proportion in the competitive market we are now in with the shadow of decarbonisation/ICE demonisation ?

As a resident of the great State of Alabama, I'm not worried about that.

- when ordering I like many that post on this excellent forum had in mind that the IG would be a long term purchase that I might keep for 10 year or more - how does that sit with (1) the challenges all major automotive companies are facing as ICE is force to give way to EV of various types and (2) with the company being so closely associated with the ideology of the founder and current owner who may not be around/ in control for the intended life of the vehicles IA are producing ?

Life is short, I'm not worried about that. When I bought my 2007 Range Rover Supercharged used in 2009, lots of folks told me not to, because it would be a "shop whore", etc. Well, it's turned out to be the best vehicle I've ever purchased. It has been pretty damn reliable and I'm at 166k miles now and still love driving it. Taking that chance paid off spectacularly for me, and I'm willing to take another chance now.

I would welcome the views of the forum members

Please see my responses above.

 

[255/85]

You're asking about Sir Ratcliffe I believe vs. a Grenadier purchaser, right?

I initially considered Ineos' owner's age a factor in the life and direction of the company. But Ineos is privately held and not subject to the whims of arguing cabals in board meetings. I would suspect that family members will inherit the farm. Ratcliffe's son is already moving up the ladder.

No disrespect is meant to anyone with my comment.

 

[AnD3rew]

As for price. For me it is competitive with the real alternatives particularly if you are comparing genuine accessories with genuine accessories. Even more so as I benefit from the fixed price for early orders. But even without the price isn’t out of the park.

As for the brand survival. No brand is guaranteed to survive, many have died and/or been acquired and assimilated over the years. I don’t think this one is particularly high risk by comparison, although a reasonable chance it may be sold at some point. The fact that the key components are from well known solid companies gives confidence that even if it were to die it could still be reasonably kept running for the lifetime I need from it.

As for the changing emmisions environment, again I don’t think Grenadier is any more at risk than any other company, like others they will need to, and are, looking at expanding their offerings with alternative fuel sources. INEOS has both EV and Hydrogen options on the drawing board.

 

[DDG]

I’ve read each of the replies so far and I can easily identify with every one. Such an INTERESTING thing/proposition/phenomenon the Grenadier is. Taken with the polls conducted herein about age and such; this vehicle introduction could be an amazing thing to study.

I’ve been on board the Ineos bandwagon since 2017. It’s been a wild ride. The one word I come back to over and over is “captured”. It’s had my attention, imagination, and passion in a tractor beam from the onset. Who wouldn’t want to do exactly what Sir Jim is attempting; given his resources and interests?

Back when initial pricing was announced it did seem like a decent value proposition. The chaos of covid and with crazy inflationary pressures, that has changed. It’s no longer a mass market appeal value home run . But as DaveB has stated, the content of parts and engineering investment does add up. This is a costly manufactured vehicle.

Is it going to actually be reliable and dependable? I really do not know. None of us do at this point. All one can do is hope. One thing is certain though; if no one buys it, it won’t long exist. That’s the part where we come in. Can we afford to support it? I’m 54. I’ve spent my life doing things for others. Putting off my own dreams to an extent. Delaying gratification for a time “some day”. Way past any fear of missing out, but really wanting to see this one through. So that’s what I’m doing. I can afford to lose a bit of money if the quality isn’t there. I won’t blame anyone for getting cold feet but also how cool is it to be a part of, if it succeeds?

There’s nothing else like it, we can mostly agree?

 

[Tom109]

@FlyingTrotter - exactly what others have said. It’s not too late - get your order in!

 

[anand]

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition
- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

1) At the US price point, it is $10-15k below what I expected it to start at. I've been a reservation holder since September of '21, and after spending some time with the vehicles, my mental "starting" price was around $85k, going up to just over $100k for a loaded Fieldmaster. Again, these were mental prices as of March '23. When the pricing was finally released, I was bluntly shocked and simultaneously excited. Are some of the options more expensive than I expected? Absolutely. However, for the overall package, well worth it all.

My build came out to right around $83k USD; and that includes leather, F&R lockers, raised air intake, safari windows, etc. I see the Grenadier being roughly equivalent to a LC200; the last year of the LC200 in the US (2021) they were selling with a MSRP in the mid $90k's but actual sales around $105k (they are still fetching $90k or more at this point used). New for new, the "closest" (currently with pricing at least), would be a Sequoia TRD Pro (yes, I understand the Sequoia is notably larger); but that is at $79k with no markup, and doesn't include front/rear diff locks (this is with the assumption that whether buying a Grenadier or a Sequoia you would be adding different wheels/tires/skid plates/sliders/winch/bumper/suspension). My vehicles get used regularly, and the "build" is the enjoyable portion for me, so each one is a never ending process until it is sold and replaced.

2) The brand I think has longevity simply because of it's founder's passion and financial backing. Sir Jim is the only one the company has to answer to. No shareholders, no stock pricing to keep up with, no worry of how the earnings reports are going to be commented on by the stock market on Monday, etc. And honestly, if the automotive side of the company gets shut down in 3-5 years, you still have a (fairly) rare, sought after, and well built vehicle. Personally, I expect to keep my Grenadier for around 12-18 months until the Quartermaster (or whatever the final naming will be), comes to the US. If that never actually makes it here, I'll probably have the Grenadier 2 years tops before it gets replaced by the latest and greatest, or whatever better suits my needs at the time, so long term confidence in the company is not in the forefront of my decision making process.

 

[Boston Boy]

As I step away from the project having cancelled my order I wanted to raise two questions in part as they were gnawing away and also because I have a foldness for the project and am interested in peoples thoughts

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition

and in a sense linked to that

- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

I followed the project pretty much from launch and made an early reservation - went on a test drive of a prototype etc

I did not make an on launch order as i was rather disconcerted by the launch and the projection of the approach to subsequent service / support - but returned to the brand after a dalliance with a JLR offering and made an order in May cancelled after a test drive of a production ready demo which others reviewing post may have seen

with that preliminary intro on to the questions

- in the lead up to launch I had understood the target price point to be £50k in GPB (or maybe £55k which was my working number) - the car as specified that I ordered in May 2023 was nearer to £75k - is that a workable value proportion in the competitive market we are now in with the shadow of decarbonisation/ICE demonisation ?

- when ordering I like many that post on this excellent forum had in mind that the IG would be a long term purchase that I might keep for 10 year or more - how does that sit with (1) the challenges all major automotive companies are facing as ICE is force to give way to EV of various types and (2) with the company being so closely associated with the ideology of the founder and current owner who may not be around/ in control for the intended life of the vehicles IA are producing ?

I would welcome the views of the forum members

two very good points. Also, after purchase, the long term experience of ownership of a vehicle can be destroyed by things such as, chronic mechanical problems, not being able to get designed-in problems fixed, getting screwed on spare parts and honesty. So with Ineos, the long term value looks worrying.

 

[Tazzieman]

Been with the project since 2017 , IMO the package is a bargain I expect fossil or biofuels will be used to cremate me so not worried about availability of petrol.
Keep working , keep paying for maintenance and fuel , keep living in the moment and not "one day I might" mentality.
If it goes belly up well "worse things happen at sea", as my great Uncle Tom apparently said.
But it won't.

 

[Tom109]

The survival of the brand and decades of production never crossed my mind. There is simply no other vehicle like it in the market. For me to buy another model and then build it to the Gren standard is a lot of work and cost. I’ve learned this lesson. This time around I’m much happier to start at a high standard and enjoy the vehicle.

 

[trobex]

As I step away from the project having cancelled my order I wanted to raise two questions in part as they were gnawing away and also because I have a foldness for the project and am interested in peoples thoughts

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition

and in a sense linked to that

- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

I followed the project pretty much from launch and made an early reservation - went on a test drive of a prototype etc

I did not make an on launch order as i was rather disconcerted by the launch and the projection of the approach to subsequent service / support - but returned to the brand after a dalliance with a JLR offering and made an order in May cancelled after a test drive of a production ready demo which others reviewing post may have seen

with that preliminary intro on to the questions

- in the lead up to launch I had understood the target price point to be £50k in GPB (or maybe £55k which was my working number) - the car as specified that I ordered in May 2023 was nearer to £75k - is that a workable value proportion in the competitive market we are now in with the shadow of decarbonisation/ICE demonisation ?

- when ordering I like many that post on this excellent forum had in mind that the IG would be a long term purchase that I might keep for 10 year or more - how does that sit with (1) the challenges all major automotive companies are facing as ICE is force to give way to EV of various types and (2) with the company being so closely associated with the ideology of the founder and current owner who may not be around/ in control for the intended life of the vehicles IA are producing ?

I would welcome the views of the forum members

Price point is excellent - simply lining the specs up against any rival and you can see plain as day the pricing is excellent (only for early res)..
As for how long this project goes, anyone's guess. Launched early vehicles seem to be hit and miss as to who inherits a vehicle with faults (some owners have many issues). Will these vehicles survive 100,000km in the bush - that is what I hope for.. the Quality of Jean M's truck let me to wonder... basic sh** and some of it was messy and requires IA to fix.
My town just got 3x production builds the other week and I hope to see one this weekend (another customers) which is waiting for parts before it can be released. I hope it gives me shivers again, I want that feeling knowing a great vehicle is coming.

 

[MarkH]

I'm convinced the vehicle will be a big hit once they start appearing in the wild and across mainstream media, give it 6-9 months and order times will blow out to 18 months, pending no GFC 2.0 that is, that's the one thing that could spoil the party. There's a lot of potential buyers out there who aren't even aware the vehicle exists yet or never heard the name Grenadier. Price wise it's up there but the market that can afford it is growing, boomers retiring. Even if Ineos sell it off in 5yrs it'll likely be an iconic vehicle by then with good sales numbers so no reason to kill it.
And oil ain't going anywhere anytime soon, the entire world runs on it. Until they come up with a better tech than clunky batteries or hydrogen (pipedream) it's here to stay.

 

[Spjnr]

I paid £60k on the nose for mine. Very well equipped station wagon, with all the offroad and electrical options minus the winch. I didn't leave anything out due to money, but rather they weren't 'worth it' for me personally. Like the rack, I'd prefer a 3/4 size.

When you look at the comparable price of the TRUE competition, ie land cruiser and Ndefender, the Grenadier actually stacks up pretty well. Plus the options are very modular, meaning your not forced into any 'packs' that lump together options you may or may not want all together.

I think in the current world cars are very expensive. I don't think the Ineos is a bad value proposition at all, just nothing really is good value these days.

 

[PanoramaJJ]

- what do people feel about the as launched price point and it’s value proposition
- what underpins buyers confidence in the likely longevity of the brand

Ich finde es ja toll, dass du dir Gedanken über die Werthaltigkeit bzw. Wertigkeit des Autos (im Verhältnis zum Kaufpreis) sowie über die Zukunft bzw. Zukunftsfähigkeit der Marke machst. Das sind sicher interessante Aspekte. Aber mir sind diese Punkte zu großen Teile völlig egal.
Denn:
- Ein stabiler Geländewagen kostet richtig viel Geld. Der Wrangler ist inzwischen sehr teuer geworden - dank der Hybridtechnik, die in diesem Auto keiner braucht. Der Toyota GRJ 76 oder GRJ 78 kostet fast genau so viel, und muss noch umfangreich verbessert werden - das bedeutet weitere Invesitionen. Der Ford Ranger kostet mit dem besten Fahrwerk auch richtig gutes Geld.
- Aber wenn du einen stabilen Wagen fährst, im Gelände, dann hast du Spaß. Du hast Zuverlässigkeit. Du hast Problemlosigkeit. Du hast das, was du willst. Dabei ist es mir egal, ob mein Hersteller in zehn Jahren noch diese Autos bauen wird - ich habe mein Auto ja schon. Das Auto, auf das ich so lange gewartet habe. Das Auto, auf das ich mich so lange gefreut habe.
- Was will ich also? Spaß! Hat Spaß viel mit Vernunft zu tun? Mit Kalkül, mit Abwägung, mit Überlegung, mit Kalkulation? Nein. Man kann sich den schönsten Spaß kaputtkalkulieren, kaputtreden, kaputtargumentieren. Oder man kann einfach nur Spaß haben.
- Mein Lieblingsargument: "Scheiß drauf!" Funktioniert immer!
HAVE FUN! See You!

 

[FlyingTrotter]

Thanks everybody for your responses - they make interesting reading

 

[AZGrenadier]

I have been watching since 2018 or so and have been excited about it the entire time. I have always been a KISS type of person, I like doors that shut with a solid "Clunk" and buttons with a definitive click. When I got my LC80 20 years ago it had those features. I also thought it was the perfect size. Sure the tech sucked and the milage was crappy but I simply loved the feeling of driving the car and loved the feeling of pushing the buttons in that car. The Ineos gives me that same feeling. I am willing to bet that I would like a Bronco or a Wrangler as well but in two or three years I simply don't see wanting to keep it. They are designed for fuel economy and looks, there is a reason why there is an entire industry designed around replacement axles for the wrangler, they aren't built like the Cruisers of the past.

As far as longevity, who knows. Is there something unproven that will blow up, maybe but what. Engine is well proven, transmission is well proven, transfer case is well proven. Axles are a crapshoot but they look burley as hell and if they aren't then I am sure that Curry or Dynatrac will come out with something. My guess is if something goes wrong it will be electronics, and probably nothing that cripples the truck. I am willing to take the gamble.

Just like the Landcruisers that I loved there are plenty of cars that are "better" in every way. They get better milage, better crash protection, better stereos, better HUD and tech like adaptive CC and everything else. Unfortunately most of those vehicles do nothing for me.

As far as price, the 96 LC sold for 50k, in todays dollars we are 97k. Sounds like the 91k that I am spending is a bargain. Doesn't hurt that I make about 30x the money I made back in 1996.