Top Gear: Grenadier vs G Wagon vs Defender vs LC

[ADVAW8S]

View: https://youtu.be/6WDk8ueDqG8?si=h30I45GcCeyCQwcX

 

[bigleonski]

They were definitely Toyota fans, before they even drove it.

 

[Mountain4x4]

Avoid water crossings....oh boy, going to be a long video. I had our Grenadier over the hood the first day After another TFL video on the Defender I volunteered to have a shoot out with the hated Grenadier on a real trail. Call me a "Mythbuster" And the solid axles and steering are a detriment I want to repeat this test on the Rubicon.

 

[Steve.B]

View: https://youtu.be/6WDk8ueDqG8?si=h30I45GcCeyCQwcX

If you want to watch Toyota fan boys, then watch it, if you don't then steer clear.
They bent the Toyota's side step, jumped on it so they could open the door and proclaimed it was self healing, said the shocking outdated 2.8D motor would survive Armageddon, and of course Toyota won the comparison.
In the past Toyota did pay Top Gear an astonishing amount of money for the year long unbreakable Hilux series, it seems the trend continues.
If Toyota spent the money it spends on advertising on research and development instead, then some of the claims would be true.
As they say what would be a service item on a Toyota would be considered a catastrophic failure on any other brand.
The Defender with air suspension and off-road tyres came last in their off-road comparison the Defender may be many things but coming last in an off-road comparison is not one of them, probably no advertising in their magazines, combined with the journo's lack of driving ability.

Now I will say what I really think.

 

[DaveB]

If you want to watch Toyota fan boys, then watch it, if you don't then steer clear.
They bent the Toyota's side step, jumped on it so they could open the door and proclaimed it was self healing, said the shocking outdated 2.8D motor would survive Armageddon, and of course Toyota won the comparison.
In the past Toyota did pay Top Gear an astonishing amount of money for the year long unbreakable Hilux series, it seems the trend continues.
If Toyota spent the money it spends on advertising on research and development instead, then some of the claims would be true.
As they say what would be a service item on a Toyota would be considered a catastrophic failure on any other brand.
The Defender with air suspension and off-road tyres came last in their off-road comparison the Defender may be many things but coming last in an off-road comparison is not one of them, probably no advertising in their magazines, combined with the jurnos lack of driving ability.

Now I will say what I really think.

Once they said outdated steering it made me wonder if they had any idea how steering and axles work.

 

[bigleonski]

Once they said outdated steering it made me wonder if they had any idea how steering and axles work.

By modern standards it IS outdated steering. Just chosen for the principle application.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

I didn’t get too worked up about it. The 250 is probably a good all-‘rounder, which is, I think, really what they’re evaluating. You can do runs to the hardware store, drive to work, and use it for camping. I mean - in the UK, that’s kind of it, right? But a lot of plastic, low clearance, a hybrid 4. I think they are speaking to a general audience with a UK bias, so their conclusion is fair enough, given the audience and their focus. But I own a Toyota Tacoma TRD as well, and I’ll tell you the dealer shop guys VASTLY prefer my Grenadier to the 250. I could see picking one up as a general run around - but to be honest, I think it’s way overpriced for what you get. If you get the premium options, it’s over $70 - before dealer and destination fees. That’s like a $15k premium over a Toyota Highlander, and you can get a Lexus GX 550 Overtrail for $69k, or an Overtrail + for $77k. It just doesn’t compute - especially when you’re going to need to spend AT LEAST $15k to get the LC up to snuff (and that doesn’t include accessories). So all that said, I just kind of shrug and don’t take the review all that seriously for the things I care about.

 

[Steve.B]

By modern standards it IS outdated steering. Just chosen for the principle application.

Just because it has been around for a while does not mean it is outdated, it is the only system that works with a live front axle, the same as skid steer is the only thing that works with tracked vehicles.
And ultra performance vehicles have 4 wheel steer, and that does not mean that IFS front steer rack and pinion is outdated, they all have their place and strength's and weaknesses.

 

[Zimm]

I think for their test they were spot on. When you look at their ineos gripes, they were the same as any impartial experienced driver has. I can read what people say on this site, and tell their experience level. I drove all of these rigs, and nothing they are saying is inherently wrong, and frankly, all of the gripes are self inflicted wounds on the part of ineos. I mean, ball steering doesn’t have to be this bad. Etc etc etc… BUT, that’s all ok! The target market was never the same as these other products, and many of ineos’s errors seem to be from veering into the daily driver consumer market anyway. 50mm of lift and 35’s, and the ballgame changes. The more lift/tire on solid axles v independent, the more the advantage increase for solid axles. It’s not durability where solids rule, it’s articulation.

Honestly, the only real difficult stumbling block on the ineos that will not be rectified with time, is the stupid choice of axles. It’s nothing one cannot adapt to and work around in use but, there really was no reason for these pokey fucking axle lockers. Once you use Gwagon gear off-road, you know how nice it is to never stop momentum.

For consumer grade, they were right. The LC 250 I took out was great. I’m just a commercial grade buyer, so they didn’t entirely address my specification.

 

[Steve.B]

I think for their test they were spot on. When you look at their ineos gripes, they were the same as any impartial experienced driver has. I can read what people say on this site, and tell their experience level. I drove all of these rigs, and nothing they are saying is inherently wrong, and frankly, all of the gripes are self inflicted wounds on the part of ineos. I mean, ball steering doesn’t have to be this bad. Etc etc etc… BUT, that’s all ok! The target market was never the same as these other products, and many of ineos’s errors seem to be from veering into the daily driver consumer market anyway. 50mm of lift and 35’s, and the ballgame changes. The more lift/tire on solid axles v independent, the more the advantage increase for solid axles. It’s not durability where solids rule, it’s articulation.

Honestly, the only real difficult stumbling block on the ineos that will not be rectified with time, is the stupid choice of axles. It’s nothing one cannot adapt to and work around in use but, there really was no reason for these pokey fucking axle lockers. Once you use Gwagon gear off-road, you know how nice it is to never stop momentum.

For consumer grade, they were right. The LC 250 I took out was great. I’m just a commercial grade buyer, so they didn’t entirely address my specification.

Interesting that you can tell people's experience level by what you read, but in my experience solid axels do as you say articulate better, but in my experience solid axels are more durable.
A solid axle is more durable than IFS by design.

 

[ADVAW8S]

The comment section of YouTube is en Fuego. Every Defender fan is on there going wild about how bad these driver was and how the Defender would win everything. You will never make anyone happy.

 

[DaveB]

By modern standards it IS outdated steering. Just chosen for the principle application.

Yes, but it seemed obvious they didn't link it to the live/solid front axle.
It was as if they thought Ineos said "let's use this steering" and that means we will have to use a live solid front axle.

 

[NQ94]

If you want to watch Toyota fan boys, then watch it, if you don't then steer clear.
They bent the Toyota's side step, jumped on it so they could open the door and proclaimed it was self healing, said the shocking outdated 2.8D motor would survive Armageddon, and of course Toyota won the comparison.
In the past Toyota did pay Top Gear an astonishing amount of money for the year long unbreakable Hilux series, it seems the trend continues.
If Toyota spent the money it spends on advertising on research and development instead, then some of the claims would be true.
As they say what would be a service item on a Toyota would be considered a catastrophic failure on any other brand.
The Defender with air suspension and off-road tyres came last in their off-road comparison the Defender may be many things but coming last in an off-road comparison is not one of them, probably no advertising in their magazines, combined with the journo's lack of driving ability.

Now I will say what I really think.

I thought that's how all mainstream media new car comparisons worked. The brand that supplies their vehicles easily and pays the highest advertising dollar generally wins the comparison or at least is second. The jurnos know that a controversal result will end in more views and revenue.

 

[Dokatd]

I find their commentary to be pretty accurate and certainly not offensive as a Grenadier owner. Considering the terrain they chose was suitable for a Subaru I suspect they made the same choice I would have. The Yota is a huge value if that's the extent of what you're doing. I just couldn't do the Defender, it offends me that LR used the Defender name on that Discovery series III or maybe it's a Freelander.

God I hated the Freelander when it first hit the USA and I was a Land Rover tech.

The Gwagon is a sweet ride and I do enjoy my earlier model a fair bit regardless of it getting a bit long in the tooth. But the new ones are just so expensive. And then the Grenadier, well....they are kinda right. It's more at home being a ranch vehicle or similar but for the price it's sure not affordable considering its limitations. But I still enjoy mine a fair bit and don't regret buying mine.

I personally wouldn't have gone in for the Yota even though it's a great practical choice.

 

[Baron von Teuchter]

I enjoyed that video to be honest

 

[FlyingTrotter]

I have a LC 250 FE and thought the assessment was about right - go more extreme off road and the IG would become much stronger - all about the use case - road biased use with no more extreme off road than that test which is my use and the LC shines

The presenters were providing entertainment more than a solid review - for goodness sake the LC has a 360 cameras system that shows the road under and ahead and wheel position and views down the side so they could have picked their line and avoided the damaged side step but maybe they need “incident” for max views on YouTube

Anyway I like my LC - not a fair comparison with the IG - the other 3 closer to it - still see 90% JLR models on UK shoots in black or grey - never seen an IG yet on a shoot - that said the off roading is not going to be challenging enough to allow the IG to really shine on UK shoots

 

[Mountain4x4]

Not seeing a lot of glowing reviews of the LC out there, especially the engine. I had no idea the killing the Toyota series was sponsored! Thanks for that nugget. These guys are not real off roaders, but at the same time much of what they said was silly. I guess I would review trucks differently. I would look at things like durability, usability, reliability off road and REAL capability. How about functionality and features? How about which car will survive bumping into something? How about ease of adding larger tires? Not, well the flimsy IFS rides better so I feel good. But the fan bois can be interesting. I feel like my favorite vehicles have always been brands where the owners are honest. And I feel like that here. If I say ADAS is stupid, no one will jump down my throat. Of the lockers could engage better. But if I go to a Ram forum and mention the fact I paid thousands of dollars for an override box to make the front locker ever work (you thought Ineos was bad) , or how smart bar/ Sway bar disconnects require a 4K cable replacement as they rust solid with in months for not being water proof.............At nearly a 100% failure rate and they will deny it....or hemi tick or....Xterra and 4 Runner were that way as well. Ineos and Montero owners have been the most down to earth.

 

[CrazyOldMan]

Not seeing a lot of glowing reviews of the LC out there, especially the engine. I had no idea the killing the Toyota series was sponsored! Thanks for that nugget. These guys are not real off roaders, but at the same time much of what they said was silly. I guess I would review trucks differently. I would look at things like durability, usability, reliability off road and REAL capability. How about functionality and features? How about which car will survive bumping into something? How about ease of adding larger tires? Not, well the flimsy IFS rides better so I feel good. But the fan bois can be interesting. I feel like my favorite vehicles have always been brands where the owners are honest. And I feel like that here. If I say ADAS is stupid, no one will jump down my throat. Of the lockers could engage better. But if I go to a Ram forum and mention the fact I paid thousands of dollars for an override box to make the front locker ever work (you thought Ineos was bad) , or how smart bar/ Sway bar disconnects require a 4K cable replacement as they rust solid with in months for not being water proof.............At nearly a 100% failure rate and they will deny it....or hemi tick or....Xterra and 4 Runner were that way as well. Ineos and Montero owners have been the most down to earth.

How DARE you criticize ADAS! It’s precious and perfect and everyone with an ounce of intelligence LOVES it!!! Pistols at dawn, sir.

 

[Zimm]

Interesting that you can tell people's experience level by what you read, but in my experience solid axels do as you say articulate better, but in my experience solid axels are more durable.
A solid axle is more durable than IFS by design.

I read what they write, and they write what they experience. Actually no better way to tell, that’s why we have people write reports…

durability is an engineering issue. If we’re going to use the worthless anecdotal “my experience” as a gauge, the only part of the ifs that has ever failed me is the center section ring and pinion. Solid axles are NOT more durable by design, they are just CHEAPER to make more durable due to design complexity, and may have issues when people that don’t understand this alter the original design.

The reason the Gwagon, and the LC went with solid axle rears, is to keep much the articulation and limit the wheel lifting you see with the defender. The nvh and handling advantage the ifs has up front isn’t nearly as great on the rear, which gets stiffened for load capacity anyway. It’ll just cause a little head bob. In a light duty consumer oriented truck, IFS with solid rear has established itself as the clear winner in in both function and durability and it wouldn’t have bothered me in the least if ineos had gone in that direction, over the 5 link. My original lc100 20 years ago was a revelation in what can be achieved and how little is actually compromised when designed properly. With a 1” lift and diff drop, it took 35’s and has a higher rti than the stock Grenadier

(The ineos caster situation is merely a design choice that as no real world advantage I can make out. I don’t feel it’s as bad as people make out, although I do warn valets. I keep hearing off-road, but, show me a solid axle truck with 5* and good on road steering that has any issues off-road that need solving)

 

[lightning]

Let's face it, these are all great vehicles and whichever one you buy you won't be disappointed.

All of them will go further off road than most people will ever take them.

ln the end it's down to personal preference or brand loyalty as much as anything.

l have a Defender but wouldn't say no to a Grenadier, G Wagon or Land Cruiser if one came my way.