Right to Repair

[Commodore]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

 

[Jackattack13]

It wouldn't shock me at all if they were in violation of these laws. It appears that Ineos is not familiar with these consumer protection laws, and/or they are and are willing to ignore them. This is the first vehicle I have ever heard of that REQUIRES you to use them alone for maintenance.

My experience with my CA Lemon Law process and INEOS is that they are willing to ignore consumer laws. The laws are pretty straight forward when it comes to buy backs, but for some reason they refuse to follow the rules.

I am sure someone could get a lawyer involved in a class action, especially as time goes on and there are fewer excuses as to why the dealerships are the ONLY place to reset service reminders and only they have access to service manuals.

 

[landmannnn]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

I can't see a specific reference to service reminder reset in this summary. It might be inferred from section 2, but that only covers repair and diagnostics, service reminder is neither of these. I hope you are right though!

 

[Jackattack13]

I can't see a specific reference to service reminder reset in this summary. It might be inferred from section 2, but that only covers repair and diagnostics, service reminder is neither of these. I hope you are right though!

It appears they are in clear violation of section 2 by not providing independent shops with manuals and software to maintain these vehicles.

 

[SkiBum1]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

There may be waivers for manufacturers selling less than a certain number of vehicles in the state or a ramp in period for new brands to comply. I would be surprised if ineos were in violation of this today having only been in the market for about a year.

 

[Jackattack13]

There may be waivers for manufacturers selling less than a certain number of vehicles in the state or a ramp in period for new brands to comply. I would be surprised if ineos were in violation of this today having only been in the market for about a year.

True. As they may fall into the "Boutique Brands" category. Would be interesting to know.

 

[SkiBum1]

True. As they may fall into the "Boutique Brands" category. Would be interesting to know.

Yes that was my point, I didn’t remember the name of it. I think they are in that bucket for a time right now.

 

[landmannnn]

It appears they are in clear violation of section 2 by not providing independent shops with manuals and software to maintain these vehicles.

It's a shame that the lawmakers didn't use your terms (manuals and software) rather than the much more vague "information"

 

[MattA]

It's a shame that the lawmakers didn't use your terms (manuals and software) rather than the much more vague "information"

No , what is a shame is the blatant lies from the get go about all service information would be freely available to anyone and everyone yet not one customer or workshop can access it

 

[parb]

i thought the california right to repair act only covers household appliances and digital devices. Automobiles are excluded. I went and googled the law (SB244) and i don't see it relating to autos at all.

The only car rights i see are that shops must be registered with BAR, must provide a written estimate, must provide a written description of the job performed.

 

[Krabby]

Just saw this: MASS RIGHT TO REPAIR

 

[DenisM]

Just saw this: MASS RIGHT TO REPAIR

A quote in the article reads

'Automakers, however, claim that it isn’t currently possible to build a system that complies with the law, saying in an Alliance statement, “Today’s decision will introduce potential security risks to our customers and their vehicles. During the trial, the attorney general’s own experts said there wasn’t any available technology to allow for operational compliance.” Whether that claim will hold up on appeal, however, remains to be seen.'

I'm wondering if the above has any implications for the much promised, much delayed workshop manual for the Grendier

 

[Commodore]

We need someone in Mass to email Ineos and request access to their car’s system to reset the service due indicator.

 

[IslandFalconer]

We need someone in Mass to email Ineos and request access to their car’s system to reset the service due indicator.

It would seem that either Ineos isn’t listening, or all the people who would like this to be resolved have not contacted Ineos.

 

[trobex]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

I have found ChatGPT to often contain numerous errors (or omissions to specific query) when I test its 'factual' accuracy.

 

[CDRE_GREN]

New owner, long time listener. Love the Fieldmaster in my driveway - but don't want it to end up as a lawn ornament. As such, I have the same concerns that float through this and other forums. When it comes to an owner's right of repair, Ineos does not get a pass because of its newness or size, it still must follow the law.

To begin with, Ineos may not coerce owners with claims that "we’ll void your warranty if you don’t use our dealers" under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (2022). It also may not restrict diagnostic data access, repair manuals, or the tools necessary for service under the Right to Repair laws that are active in several states, the strongest of which exists in Massachusetts. If I lived there, I would have already filed a lawsuit because of the lack of material support from the company. It is 2025. The Grenadier has been on the U.S. market for three years, there is no longer an excuse for the lack of maintenance support. Because I don't live in Mass, I will file claims with the FTC and my state Attorney General (something that everyone who is interested in this issue can do).

I would note that the small number of Grenadiers on the road is not a defense for limited repair services, in fact it suggests just the opposite. From a marketing perspective this conversation is literally killing sales - the cool ads comparing the Grenadier to Defender are just too ironic. Right now a Grenadier is literally more of a mall queen than a new Defender because it is always tied to a dealership. These strings needs to be cut. Ineos must enable loyal owners, most of whom live great distances from dealers, to handle everyday tasks - without suffering constant, annoying warning indications.

This isn't just about marketing. From a legal perspective, there is no doubt that Ineos has the responsibility to enable owners to conduct common maintenance activity, such as oil service reset, TPMS programming, and windshield repair - all of which are supported by every other auto manufacturer. It must also enable independent repair shops to have access to core programming materials for both diagnosis and repair. Independent repair shops also should have access to repair parts that do not come through the dealer (tariffs will already bring enough added cost). Finally, the owners themselves should have access to a complete maintenance manual (even if online) and a parts website, regardless of the fact that there may be limited available inventory and long wait times.

I would note for any Ineos employee that might read this: While the information in this forum is only anecdotal - if it were to appear that Ineos was using the limited availability of parts and licensed diagnostic and repair software as a way to "herd" owners to the small number of Ineos dealers, that kind of behavior certainly meets the standard of anti-competitive behavior in both the U.S. and E.U. This could warrant a federal criminal investigation - and it is probably not a good time for that kind of scrutiny if you don't make cars in the U.S. If the company insists on maintaining practices that appear to be anti-competitive it will certainly lose access to its largest market - and that would suck. It's time to grow up. The fun bar story and comparisons with the old Defender got you going, but building a new brand buit on toughness and reliability needs the next step.

 

[FlyingTexan]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

It’s not a Cali law it’s a federal law after the Supreme Court took it up with John Deere.

 

[DaveB]

California and many other states have right to repair laws that apply to automobiles. California's require that diagnostic tools and and other vehicle specific tools be offered to independent repair facilities. At this point only the dealer can reset service reminders. That would appear a violation of California law. Below is ChatGPT's summery of California's Automotive Repair Act. Does anyone on the forum own an independent repair shop or have a friend that does? It would be great if a shop could contact Ineos and get pricing and availability on their diagnostic equipment.

California's Right to Repair laws for automobiles are part of the California Automotive Repair Act, ensuring transparency, consumer protection, and access to necessary information for maintaining and repairing vehicles. Here's a summary:

1. Consumer Protection and Transparency​

• Written Estimates: Automotive repair shops must provide a written estimate before performing repairs.
• Customer Authorization: Repairs cannot proceed without the customer's explicit approval of the estimate.
• Itemized Billing: Repair shops must provide a detailed invoice, including labor, parts, and additional fees.
• Return of Replaced Parts: Upon request, consumers are entitled to receive any replaced parts for review.

2. Access to Diagnostic Data​

• California supports the Right to Repair Act, requiring manufacturers to provide independent repair shops with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair information.
• Manufacturers must also ensure compatibility with off-the-shelf diagnostic tools.

3. OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) vs. Aftermarket Parts​

• Repair shops must inform consumers about the use of aftermarket or non-OEM parts and obtain their consent before installation.

4. Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Oversight​

• BAR enforces compliance, investigates consumer complaints, and mediates disputes between repair shops and customers.
• Consumers can file complaints if they believe a shop violated their rights or misrepresented the scope or cost of repairs.

5. Prohibitions on Unfair Practices​

• Misleading pricing, unauthorized repairs, and unnecessary repairs are prohibited under the Automotive Repair Act.

6. Electric Vehicles and Digital Repairs​

• As vehicles become more computerized, California requires manufacturers to provide software updates, proprietary tools, and digital access to ensure independent repair shops can perform repairs on electric and modern vehicles.

7. Consumer Rights and Remedies​

• If repair shops fail to comply with the law, consumers can report violations to BAR, seek mediation, or pursue legal remedies.

These laws ensure that consumers have choices in auto repair, maintain cost transparency, and protect against unethical practices.

We have very similar laws in Australia but non-dealers have to pay for the manuals and tools.
That means they do have access to them but many choose not to.

 

[BradS1]

Have any of you plugged a real diagnostic into this car to see what's what? It's basically a BMW isn't it? I just got my truck and will try later but I'd imagine if I go by a generic BMW I'm able to get into all the modules, infotainment, reset service lights, code out start stop and things of that nature. (or maybe I can't)?

 

[landmannnn]

Have any of you plugged a real diagnostic into this car to see what's what? It's basically a BMW isn't it? I just got my truck and will try later but I'd imagine if I go by a generic BMW I'm able to get into all the modules, infotainment, reset service lights, code out start stop and things of that nature. (or maybe I can't)?

No. The engine ECU is BMW, the rest isn't.