On-road handling

[Boston Boy]

Re: the comment on the Grenadier feeling like it is wandering on hardtop roads and not returning to center. My brother who lives in Vermont said the Alignment shops up three used to have a chart asking if you were driving on flat or crowned road, since that determined how they would set up the alignment. On (left hand drive countries) a crowned road they could it up to stay in its lane but that would make it drift left on flat (generally unpaved road) and also that self centering feel could be adjusted by alignment. I wonder if the Grenadiers can be set up for better self centering of the steering in the alignment process?
I found the following detailed explanation of wheel alignment which might be helpful. http://www.nissantechnicianinfo.mobi/htmlversions/Winter_2013-14/Wheel_Alignment.html
Any comments on alignment from others with more actual knowledge than me?

 

[joejet]

It’s a trait of solid axel cars with steering boxes rather than rack and pinion, not helped with power steering but it’s better off road. the caster angle can be adjusted to help. I have a TD5 defender that is in really tight, no play in steering or transmission and it drives so well but still has the centering issue. (it’s the best 90 defender I have owned out of 6 of them) I did not notice it, it really is one of those things you get used to very quickly, if you come form an old defender or JK jeep or before they also have the issue + Jeeps have death wobble a really serious issue. (don’t know about JL not drive. one) Witn the small amount of driving i did in the ineos, (did drive down a fast track as well as offroad.) the Ineos is better anyway. compare it to rack and pinion (New defender) and it’s worse on road but then you end up with independent suspension. It’s all a compromise!

 

[CEMechanic]

In simple terms a positive caster angle improves self centering and increases the forces felt at the steering wheel to pull back to centre. A negative caster angle makes the steering feel lighter, up to a point that the steering can feel vague around the centre and the vehicle not ‚pulling‘ straight.
This is independent from tracking, the position of the wheels towards eachother and camber, the leaning angle of the wheels - again in low tech lingo.
To adjust the caster on solid axle vehicles it is needed to rotate the axle (backwards has positive effect, forward the opposite).

For Defenders different length radius arms can be bought to compensate the caster change when the car had a lift. This helps the car to self centre and to pull straight.

The axle on the Grenadier is also held in place by linkage bars, the hub geometry is defined by machined axis and bearings.

Most likely Ineos have selected the best compromise in geometry with the given components. If press and customer field feedback is too negative, they would probably address it.

But we all have to drive the vehicle first, to see if road holding and steering is acceptable. Many people plan for the Grenadier to be a long distance touring car or trailer puller. For this purpose stable road holding is a must, as it makes for a relaxing drive on road.

Hard core and low speed off reading is another thing, and it seems the Grenadier has already proven its qualities there.

 

[das mo]

I have zero experience with such a setup.
But as some reviews make it sound like a security risk whilst others call it absolutely normal for the chosen setup, I am also wondering, if I shall look for an option to drive on road before signing the delayed contract.
Just been off road with it so far.

 

[Tom D]

I’m going to bet that I don‘t even notice it. Never did on any defenders I owned…

 

[DenisM]

I have zero experience with such a setup.
But as some reviews make it sound like a security risk whilst others call it absolutely normal for the chosen setup, I am also wondering, if I shall look for an option to drive on road before signing the delayed contract.
Just been off road with it so far.

This extract from Road and Track regarding the precise handling on the highway also reflects the recently reported positive experience of two local Australian Ineos drivers who ferried a vehicle from Melbourne to Brisbane non stop (1800km; 19 hrs) most of it on motorway ( speed limit 100 -110kmh) conditions.....

" If you’ve spent much time in lifted body-on-frames, you’ll understand the patience required to wrestle off-roaders through corners smoothly. Confident steering inputs are key. Here, the Grenadier uses recirculating-ball steering with hydraulic assist at 3.85 turns lock-to-lock. That steering, plus a relatively sophisticated suspension paired to the stick axles (in this case, progressive coil springs, anti-roll bars, and a five-link setup) means decently quick turn-in on corner entry and stable roadholding through Scotland’s brisk, tight backroads.

Navigating those corners at speed does take some skill, as mentioned. But if you’re willing to give the Grenadier the type of smooth inputs the steering and chassis ask for, the truck returns in kind. Into tight bends, you look all the way through the corner and make one smooth initial steering input. Wait a second for the body to set on all that suspension travel, but keep your hands steady in the process and don’t disrupt longitudinal stability with harsh brake or throttle inputs. By waiting out that half-second when the suspension is damping that body motion, you can point the Grenadier through any corner like you would a sport sedan."

 

[curb-optional]

This extract from Road and Track regarding the precise handling on the highway also reflects the recently reported positive experience of two local Australian Ineos drivers who ferried a vehicle from Melbourne to Brisbane non stop (1800km; 19 hrs) most of it on motorway ( speed limit 100 -110kmh) conditions.....

" If you’ve spent much time in lifted body-on-frames, you’ll understand the patience required to wrestle off-roaders through corners smoothly. Confident steering inputs are key. Here, the Grenadier uses recirculating-ball steering with hydraulic assist at 3.85 turns lock-to-lock. That steering, plus a relatively sophisticated suspension paired to the stick axles (in this case, progressive coil springs, anti-roll bars, and a five-link setup) means decently quick turn-in on corner entry and stable roadholding through Scotland’s brisk, tight backroads.

Navigating those corners at speed does take some skill, as mentioned. But if you’re willing to give the Grenadier the type of smooth inputs the steering and chassis ask for, the truck returns in kind. Into tight bends, you look all the way through the corner and make one smooth initial steering input. Wait a second for the body to set on all that suspension travel, but keep your hands steady in the process and don’t disrupt longitudinal stability with harsh brake or throttle inputs. By waiting out that half-second when the suspension is damping that body motion, you can point the Grenadier through any corner like you would a sport sedan."

I have a reservation & think the Ineos looks great. reading all this, I hope I don't have unrealistic expectations for handling. I've driven a small LR for about 9 years now, and have tested out the toyota LC, the GX, and of course the new Defender. I've also had several RR for weeks as loaner cars as they fix my LR. Overall, I found the LC and new defender surprisingly easy to drive. big cars, but not burdensome behemoths. the LC was super surprising as I just didn't expect that smooth of a drive out of it.

 

[Znarfgh]

I took mine for a 400klm drive on mainly freeway drives yesterday after taking possession of the vehicle on Saturday.

There has been much hysterical discussion about the Grenadier having the infamous “death wobble” on various forums and I can happily report that this is not the case. The Ineos engineers have done a magnificent job with the suspension of the Grenadier.

The steering is a little vague but that is to be expected from a live axle vehicle and should not be compared with IFS. If you expect the IG to handle like your SUV you will probably be disappointed. Non the less this vehicle handles much better than my Land Rover Discovery 2.

Cornering is flat with minimum body roll and the suspension tune is fantastic. I suspect the weight of the vehicle has something to do with this as well. I took the vehicle across a weigh bridge and was surprised by its 2,920kg weight (without any loading or passengers.

The turning circle is truly atrocious and if you attempt U turns on normal roads be prepared to have multiple attempts. When I switched from my Disco 2 to a Jeep Grand Cherokee I was amazed at the turns I was able to make with the JGC. I’m going have to seriously think about U turns in future. But, that’s something I’ll get used to and I was prepared for it (to a degree).

 

[Tazzieman]

As I mentioned in my post elsewhere yesterday , the handling is truly excellent. As long as you are mindful of the almost 3 ton mass , it will do what you want it too. Brake well before the corner and accelerate once you are straightening out. Basic stuff.

 

[DenisM]

I took mine for a 400klm drive on mainly freeway drives yesterday after taking possession of the vehicle on Saturday.

........
The turning circle is truly atrocious and if you attempt U turns on normal roads be prepared to have multiple attempts. When I switched from my Disco 2 to a Jeep Grand Cherokee I was amazed at the turns I was able to make with the JGC. I’m going have to seriously think about U turns in future. But, that’s something I’ll get used to and I was prepared for it (to a degree).

That's a very precise turn. .sounds like you've already nailed it!

 

[AWo]

There are two main forces which support auto-centering of the steering: toe setting (toe in or toe out) and caster.

Most cars, especially with beam axles use toe out at the front axle. That means both front wheels want to run apart from each other and thereby generating a force which centers the steering. Using a toe out setup leads to understeering, which is the more manageable, saver cornering. You can check it yourself if your car uses toe out. When you just start cornering and you turn the wheel, check if you need to turn the steering wheel a little bit more when cornering just has started.

The reason why that happens is: the outer front wheel turns later into the bend than the inner wheel and its direction is at that point more to the outside of the bend. When you start cornering the load on both front wheels (pressure to the ground) is equal and therefore the grip is the same, so the inner wheel, which directs more and earlier into the bend, pulls the car into the curve (the outer wheel is maybe around angle 0 whereas the inner wheel is already at an angle which directs into the curve).

Then the car shifts its weight due to centrifugal forces to the outside wheels. That leads to more load/pressure and grip on the outside front wheel, which runs more to the outside of the curve at that time. That is the moment where you get the feeling of understeering and you automatically correct it by turning the steerig wheel a little bit further into the curve. If there are no changes in weight distribution any more (because you do not brake or accelerate) you get more the feeling of oversteering, as the inner wheel points to the inner side of the curve and the outside wheel is running on the ideal line through the curve. Especially when you brake or deccelerate the car will tend to run to the inside of the curve (Because more load is on the front axle then which gives both front wheels more control of the direction and one front wheel points to the inside of the curve while the other front wheel runs on the ideal line. When you accelerate you put more load on the rear axle, which gives the rear axle more control and takes away weight from the inner front wheel, which points to the oversteering direction. The rear axle has either an toe angle of 0 or toe in. I assume it has an toe angle of 0).

The second force is the caster, what you can check which each trolley you use in the supermarket. By lifting the car via lifting kits or springs you reduce the caster and thereby the force for automatic centering of the steering. Steering becomes easier, you need less power and thereby the feeling for the steering gets reduced. it doesn't feel good and the steering becomes more flighty. For extreme lifts of a Land Rover Defender there where steering housings available, where the king pin was in a different position as the original to set the caster back to a normal value. Toyota and others, where the axle and the steering housing is one couldn't do anything about that (a.f.a.i.k). They needed new radius arms which turn the axle back to its original position, which lead to other problems like heavyly bended universal joints of the drive shafts, so you need to apply other things again and correct the drive shafts...and so on and so on...

The reason why the car tends not to run in line on bumpy roads is, that always the wheel with the most grip rules. That wheel determines where the car runs to. As the Grenadier for sure uses toe out and on a bumpy road the grip changes in every second from wheel to wheel it will end up in an unsteady drive, pulling once to the left and once to the right and you always have to correct the steering. That is normal and just follows physics. That is the price you pay for having a steady ride on even ground.

AWo

 

[trobex]

As I mentioned in my post elsewhere yesterday , the handling is truly excellent. As long as you are mindful of the almost 3 ton mass , it will do what you want it too. Brake well before the corner and accelerate once you are straightening out. Basic stuff.

You brake? Thought down shifting in manual mode would be more your style!!!