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[Mountain4x4]

I realized the Grenadier is not for everyone, additionally early model teething issues are hurting it. But so many are comparing it to the wrong vehicles and taking it over a graded dirt road and say welp, pretty good. And that is about as far as it gets. Granted big time tests are limited by availability and no doubt TFL will at least get some moderate testing done, such as where the Defender had to be abandoned on Red Cone. You cannot compare it to a Defender! A Defender is a street car with bling. You are going nowhere with those horrific tires, IRS, electronics over reliance, layers of plastic and being insanely impossible to modify. Has ANYONE mentioned that? TFL asked the dealer to install a winch and it was so difficult the insurance TOTALED the Defender! They compare to other utes on limited, simple, sometimes articulated terrain and say, whelp, that Toyota or Land Rover traction control is much better, look at how good it is! The truth is traction is generally turned off in 4 low on most vehicles, because it becomes useless, overheats the brakes, stalls the vehicle and so on. Its 4x4 and lockers you use off road, NOT traction control. Then I see comparison after comparison to IFS vehicles! Guess what, the Bronco sheds parts like crazy, and the 4 Runner? Add some real tires and see what happens. New LC, yep IFS. So, lets take the Rubicon Trail as a bench mark, and imagine for a minute what would happen in a shoot out. Its difficult, but no where as difficult as other trails I do. ( I ran it in September last, and have done it over a dozen times in Monteros/ Pajeros)

New Land Cruiser -- Challenged by small tires and no front locker it would get horse whipped to death but probably survive with tons of body damage, its all plastic. Might actually break something, hard to say. Bigger tires would shred the front end most likely.
New Defender -- Would not make it past the gate keeper with out un-believable carnage, breakage and blown bling, bling tires, and the body damage would exceed the vehicles value. How is that traction control helping going over furniture sized boulders?
Four Runner -- With tiny tires, IFS and acres of plastic, and little clearance..... I mean we have one, and I would not try. We keep it on easy trails. It would take 40K to successfully build a 4 Runner for heavy duty action. Add big tires and the front end is history.
Bronco -- With its 35s and improved gearing it would make the Grenadier look like a waste of money and embarrass it at first. But with the entire front end melted down by Walker Hill I will idle past in the Grenadier as the Bronco struggles to find parts using the "cell phone tree". ( where the Ozzies flopped the Toyota) Thanks to a Jeep part in my Montero ( t-case) I got to enjoy that adventure last summer. Even more scarry would be in a more remote place and breaking down. And what will it take to solve the weak issues, think lots of 20K SAS coming. ( cheap compared to the 4 runner for reference) We would own a Bronco NOW if it had been properly engineered or had a solid axle.
Jeep -- With 33s the struggle is real, but the solid front axle means you can get through with some rock stacking. The perfect gearing also makes for an easier stock passage. Jeep does it every year with legions of rock stackers. A Dozen time bombs wait to stop you same as the Bronco, t case out put, tie rods, steering, axle tubes and so one. Pretty cheap and easy to build, with a solid engine, so you will do better next time on 37s and lots of beefing up of week components. What beats a Jeep? Depends if you need room or not really, a Jeep has no space. And who wants to drive what everyone else does?
Grenadier -- With its tiny tires the struggle is real, and like the Jeep rock stacking will be common. Gearing hinders progress and cooling, but may be ok with small tires. However, you will not break anything and have nothing more then some rock slider and bumper scratches to prove you did the trail. As soon as solutions are available you add lift, tires and gears as well as a sway bar disconnect to a drivetrain stronger then anything listed above. And the next time you make it look easy. That is taking a more holistic view of a vehicle.

Yes, I left pick ups off the list above. And I known what many of you are saying...I will never do anything that hard! Fair enough, but my points are;

1. If it makes it through the Rubicon stock, imagine it modified!
2. If you survive the Rubicon with out breaking, that 3 week trip in Remote Africa, or Baja, or Utah will certainly be trouble free!
3. Nothing beats lockers and Solid Axles, NOTHING, get over it. No amount of GOAT modes can replace, well, ummmm, pure traction and wheel travel.
4. How hard is it to modify. Yes, the Grenadier will need some real tough solutions for un-common axle and t-case parts, but it is a VERY short list. And modifying a simple bolt together rig on solid axles is way easier then IFS, or some uni-body nightmare. I imagine its such a devoted off roader solutions will come, and they will not revolve around starting from scratch.

Everyone tests on the Rubicon, but the test must include impartiality, an open mind and not burying your head in the sand if something breaks and saying, oh well, thats extreme 4 wheeling for you.

As for on road? Hard to say at this point, but the Defender is a street car and certainly beats the Grenadier. Bronco is noisy, but has the most comfort items. The Jeep is Noisy and handles worse. Four Runner is sluggish and Loud. In the end they will all get you to the trail head, its more personal choice. If style matters, then the Grenadier wins! What about towing....oh yes, that is right only the Grenadier can tow for all practical matters.

How about some finer details?
Best Looks? Thats Easy
Functionality? Grenadier by hundreds of miles, Bronco in a race for second place.
Here a short list of features the others or most do not all have, gear driven t/case, king pins, durable suspension, all coils, rain gutters, proper spare tire, proper tire mount on back, roof ladder, usable roof, able to stand on hood, metal bumpers, 4 recovery points, off road mode with no nannies or dinging, water fording mode, accessory switches, pre-wired connectors, side handles for roof access, low profile rack that is practical, order an awning from the factory, utility straps, integrated front winch, rock sliders, (lockers, winch and rock sliders are a starter package you MUST have), proper rear doors, safari windows, 4wd for highway use, Reccaro seats, Brembo Brakes, shaved front axle, limited low hanging items, high quality paint and corrosion resistance, axillary power system and back up battery for camp, I will think of more, I am missing a lot but thats a start.

Its the sum of the entire vehicle, not just a few features or something cool like a tooter horn that make a vehicle "Built on Purpose"

 

[AngusMacG]

Nice write up…being a “noob” with off-roading sounds lIke the Grenny is the right choice for me.

 

[DaBull]

I realized the Grenadier is not for everyone, additionally early model teething issues are hurting it. But so many are comparing it to the wrong vehicles and taking it over a graded dirt road and say welp, pretty good. And that is about as far as it gets. Granted big time tests are limited by availability and no doubt TFL will at least get some moderate testing done, such as where the Defender had to be abandoned on Red Cone. You cannot compare it to a Defender! A Defender is a street car with bling. You are going nowhere with those horrific tires, IRS, electronics over reliance, layers of plastic and being insanely impossible to modify. Has ANYONE mentioned that? TFL asked the dealer to install a winch and it was so difficult the insurance TOTALED the Defender! They compare to other utes on limited, simple, sometimes articulated terrain and say, whelp, that Toyota or Land Rover traction control is much better, look at how good it is! The truth is traction is generally turned off in 4 low on most vehicles, because it becomes useless, overheats the brakes, stalls the vehicle and so on. Its 4x4 and lockers you use off road, NOT traction control. Then I see comparison after comparison to IFS vehicles! Guess what, the Bronco sheds parts like crazy, and the 4 Runner? Add some real tires and see what happens. New LC, yep IFS. So, lets take the Rubicon Trail as a bench mark, and imagine for a minute what would happen in a shoot out. Its difficult, but no where as difficult as other trails I do. ( I ran it in September last, and have done it over a dozen times in Monteros/ Pajeros)

New Land Cruiser -- Challenged by small tires and no front locker it would get horse whipped to death but probably survive with tons of body damage, its all plastic. Might actually break something, hard to say. Bigger tires would shred the front end most likely.
New Defender -- Would not make it past the gate keeper with out un-believable carnage, breakage and blown bling, bling tires, and the body damage would exceed the vehicles value. How is that traction control helping going over furniture sized boulders?
Four Runner -- With tiny tires, IFS and acres of plastic, and little clearance..... I mean we have one, and I would not try. We keep it on easy trails. It would take 40K to successfully build a 4 Runner for heavy duty action. Add big tires and the front end is history.
Bronco -- With its 35s and improved gearing it would make the Grenadier look like a waste of money and embarrass it at first. But with the entire front end melted down by Walker Hill I will idle past in the Grenadier as the Bronco struggles to find parts using the "cell phone tree". ( where the Ozzies flopped the Toyota) Thanks to a Jeep part in my Montero ( t-case) I got to enjoy that adventure last summer. Even more scarry would be in a more remote place and breaking down. And what will it take to solve the weak issues, think lots of 20K SAS coming. ( cheap compared to the 4 runner for reference) We would own a Bronco NOW if it had been properly engineered or had a solid axle.
Jeep -- With 33s the struggle is real, but the solid front axle means you can get through with some rock stacking. The perfect gearing also makes for an easier stock passage. Jeep does it every year with legions of rock stackers. A Dozen time bombs wait to stop you same as the Bronco, t case out put, tie rods, steering, axle tubes and so one. Pretty cheap and easy to build, with a solid engine, so you will do better next time on 37s and lots of beefing up of week components. What beats a Jeep? Depends if you need room or not really, a Jeep has no space. And who wants to drive what everyone else does?
Grenadier -- With its tiny tires the struggle is real, and like the Jeep rock stacking will be common. Gearing hinders progress and cooling, but may be ok with small tires. However, you will not break anything and have nothing more then some rock slider and bumper scratches to prove you did the trail. As soon as solutions are available you add lift, tires and gears as well as a sway bar disconnect to a drivetrain stronger then anything listed above. And the next time you make it look easy. That is taking a more holistic view of a vehicle.

Yes, I left pick ups off the list above. And I known what many of you are saying...I will never do anything that hard! Fair enough, but my points are;

1. If it makes it through the Rubicon stock, imagine it modified!
2. If you survive the Rubicon with out breaking, that 3 week trip in Remote Africa, or Baja, or Utah will certainly be trouble free!
3. Nothing beats lockers and Solid Axles, NOTHING, get over it. No amount of GOAT modes can replace, well, ummmm, pure traction and wheel travel.
4. How hard is it to modify. Yes, the Grenadier will need some real tough solutions for un-common axle and t-case parts, but it is a VERY short list. And modifying a simple bolt together rig on solid axles is way easier then IFS, or some uni-body nightmare. I imagine its such a devoted off roader solutions will come, and they will not revolve around starting from scratch.

Everyone tests on the Rubicon, but the test must include impartiality, an open mind and not burying your head in the sand if something breaks and saying, oh well, thats extreme 4 wheeling for you.

As for on road? Hard to say at this point, but the Defender is a street car and certainly beats the Grenadier. Bronco is noisy, but has the most comfort items. The Jeep is Noisy and handles worse. Four Runner is sluggish and Loud. In the end they will all get you to the trail head, its more personal choice. If style matters, then the Grenadier wins! What about towing....oh yes, that is right only the Grenadier can tow for all practical matters.

How about some finer details?
Best Looks? Thats Easy
Functionality? Grenadier by hundreds of miles, Bronco in a race for second place.
Here a short list of features the others or most do not all have, gear driven t/case, king pins, durable suspension, all coils, rain gutters, proper spare tire, proper tire mount on back, roof ladder, usable roof, able to stand on hood, metal bumpers, 4 recovery points, off road mode with no nannies or dinging, water fording mode, accessory switches, pre-wired connectors, side handles for roof access, low profile rack that is practical, order an awning from the factory, utility straps, integrated front winch, rock sliders, (lockers, winch and rock sliders are a starter package you MUST have), proper rear doors, safari windows, 4wd for highway use, Reccaro seats, Brembo Brakes, shaved front axle, limited low hanging items, high quality paint and corrosion resistance, axillary power system and back up battery for camp, I will think of more, I am missing a lot but thats a start.

Its the sum of the entire vehicle, not just a few features or something cool like a tooter horn that make a vehicle "Built on Purpose"

I'll take one! DaBull

 

[IG_in_AZ]

Love mine. I'll probably never go that hard, but I'll enjoy it nonetheless. I I thought I dropped a tire (front right) into a washout going downslope and thought I hit the corner, bumper, fender or something on the ground or upslope on the side. Got home and checked in daylight. Nothing I could see. Not even a dirt mark.

 

[moosetown]

I've been seeing more and more Broncos on the Rubicon, doing pretty well. The Grenadier has a somewhat low RTI score, I wouldn't be surprised if the best Bronco beat it there. Though of course IFS to SFA is apples to oranges and I'll personally only own SFA. The solid axle Grenadier can probably be modified to out articulate a Bronco with paper clips and string.

The Grenadier is an absolute dream rig mechanically. I love the proper tube links and arms, the king pins, the behemoth frame, the big axles, and the drivetrain. I just am having cold feet pulling the trigger on a vehicle I am going to depend on with my life, with software issues as basic as the fuel gauge level. I don't want to write off faulty warning lights as character. I don't want a vehicle with all the annoying ADAS features but none of the useful ones.

 

[Tergosa]

I purposely wanted to buy this vehicle before ADAS features and more coming are mandated in the US. It’s too bad IG felt the need to be proactive in this market unnecessarily.

 

[Jeremy996]

I've got 14,500 miles on my early MY23 Utility Grenadier. It's probably only done 100 miles off road and most of that in sandy/loamy mud rather than dry rocks. It did have all of the software issues of early vehicles but the software update has solved that. I also had water ingress and pooling between the seals, but those are now cured too. If your dealer is OK, you will be OK; if the dealer isn't, whatever car you get will be a world of pain.

The basic vehicle is really good, most of the system and software choices make sense, although the range counter seems unduly pessimistic. I am not going to worry about a fuel gauge which is not millimetrically accurate as none of them are, (in my Morgan, it's probably the biggest liar in the car!)

 

[Mountain4x4]

You do see a ton of Broncos on the Rubicon, for a good reason. They come with 35s and lockers. The real question is how many breakdown. My guess is a huge number. I did not think to ask a Rubicon Patrol that in September, wish I would have. Seeing how even upgraded parts are snapping like crazy, I am not sure how viable the Bronco will ever be without an SAS. The Grenadier on the other hand will need a lift, sway bar disconnect and tires for the Con. Gears are somewhat questionable. I would take a Grenadier on 35s over a Bronco on the Con because I am much more confident I will make it out. And I HATE fixing stuff on the trail on my own rig. I will take a welder as usual when I get a Grenadier on the Con, but I expect it will be used on other vehicles.

The electronic troubles are maybe 5% of the Defender and 10% of the Broncos issues, and on those they disable lockers, blow up t-cases,( Bronco) and disable the vehicle...ouch. While annoying, I believe the Grenadier will keep going.

 

[cjsmith]

Love mine. I'll probably never go that hard, but I'll enjoy it nonetheless. I I thought I dropped a tire (front right) into a washout going downslope and thought I hit the corner, bumper, fender or something on the ground or upslope on the side. Got home and checked in daylight. Nothing I could see. Not even a dirt mark.

While there are obviously some Grenadier owners who will take a $90,000 truck on the Rubicon and beat the snot out of it, I think there may be some like me who want a solid 4x4 I can keep forever that can take me anywhere in any weather when I want to go hunting, fishing, kayaking or surfing in some out of the way spot. I will never use it as a rock crawler, so I wonder is this really for me?? My Rebel has taken me everywhere with ease and comfort, maybe the Grenadier is overkill for my use.

 

[[ Adam ]]

I will never use it as a rock crawler, so I wonder is this really for me??

In my opinion, the Grenadier is neither built for nor intended for rock crawling.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

The zealots miss the point that the market for rock crawling vehicles is so small, there would be no Grenadier if IA, had actually listened to them.

And they wouldn’t want all the newb’s out there on the trail anyway.

The top trim Grenadier should be the most capable mall crawler for sale in the US.
That should give enough volume to cheapen the utility model up enough to serve the rock crawler crowd. It has to compete with the Jeeps and Toyota’s.

But every brand is now bringing multiple models to market aiming at that segment.

Heresy, I know.

I ordered the mall crawler model with no intention of ever scratching it.
I just want to pull my bird camp around the west, and access some of the deeper areas.
I’ll be carrying guns and gear to the club. Dogs to the training grounds.
Launching my various watercraft off some dodgy launches.
Golf clubs as necessary.
Ascending and descending hills around Devil’s Canyon. Easing over rocks and logs in the Coronado. Slip sliding in the gumbo of western Kansas. Accessing my properties in the winter in Michigan’s north, and lots of highway driving.

The marketplace will show which conformation carries the day.
The vehicle is a bit bit spartan at present.
It will be interesting to see how they work around that.

 

[Bruce]

While there are obviously some Grenadier owners who will take a $90,000 truck on the Rubicon and beat the snot out of it, I think there may be some like me who want a solid 4x4 I can keep forever that can take me anywhere in any weather when I want to go hunting, fishing, kayaking or surfing in some out of the way spot. I will never use it as a rock crawler, so I wonder is this really for me?? My Rebel has taken me everywhere with ease and comfort, maybe the Grenadier is overkill for my use.

I won't be doing any hardcore Colorado rock crawling for sure, and if I'm honest with myself a truck would be more practical (other than parking in Seattle) but the Grenadier has gotten me more excited about a vehicle than anything else in a long time. Overkill, probably, but that also translates to peace of mind when I hit the BDRs knowing my vehicle can exceed my capabilities and then some. The fact that it has modern conveniences and scratches my classic Defender itch without as many oil stains on the garage floor is a bonus.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

I won't be doing any hardcore Colorado rock crawling for sure, and if I'm honest with myself a truck would be more practical (other than parking in Seattle) but the Grenadier has gotten me more excited about a vehicle than anything else in a long time. Overkill, probably, but that also translates to peace of mind when I hit the BDRs knowing my vehicle can exceed my capabilities and then some. The fact that it has modern conveniences and scratches my classic Defender itch without as many oil stains on the garage floor is a bonus.

I think the styling taps into the aspirational element of the Old Defender more than people will admit. All good In my view.
”They were rare and unaffordable in my youth, now a worthy clone is not.”

I think the sales are more bottom up than G wagon down.

 

[Krabby]

I won't be doing any hardcore Colorado rock crawling for sure, and if I'm honest with myself a truck would be more practical (other than parking in Seattle) but the Grenadier has gotten me more excited about a vehicle than anything else in a long time. Overkill, probably, but that also translates to peace of mind when I hit the BDRs knowing my vehicle can exceed my capabilities and then some. The fact that it has modern conveniences and scratches my classic Defender itch without as many oil stains on the garage floor is a bonus.

Exactly. And this probably represents a good chunk of us in the NA market. I will be taking my truck off-road as much as I can, but I’m not going to be hitting the Rock Gardens at any OHV parks.

 

[cjsmith]

The zealots miss the point that the market for rock crawling vehicles is so small, there would be no Grenadier if IA, had actually listened to them.

And they wouldn’t want all the newb’s out there on the trail anyway.

The top trim Grenadier should be the most capable mall crawler for sale in the US.
That should give enough volume to cheapen the utility model up enough to serve the rock crawler crowd. It has to compete with the Jeeps and Toyota’s.

But every brand is now bringing multiple models to market aiming at that segment.

Heresy, I know.

I ordered the mall crawler model with no intention of ever scratching it.
I just want to pull my bird camp around the west, and access some of the deeper areas.
I’ll be carrying guns and gear to the club. Dogs to the training grounds.
Launching my various watercraft off some dodgy launches.
Golf clubs as necessary.
Ascending and descending hills around Devil’s Canyon. Easing over rocks and logs in the Coronado. Slip sliding in the gumbo of western Kansas. Accessing my properties in the winter in Michigan’s north, and lots of highway driving.

The marketplace will show which conformation carries the day.
The vehicle is a bit bit spartan at present.
It will be interesting to see how they work around that.

Exactly

 

[Mountain4x4]

For me Overlanding eventually involves rock crawling, of my top 10 favorites 2/3rds involve some sort of rock crawling. Some harder then others, sure. But a bombproof rig these can be, and with only a handful of mods for serious rock crawling. Instead of years and years of plastic chopping and upgrading a simple lift and tires will allow you to go anywhere but a buggy trail, and GET HOME. However I have no interest in OHV parks, never have. Given we do not have a lot of time left for overlanding in the US everyone should be aiming to enjoy what we have left until its all closed by the Preservationist movement.

 

[Lord Ripon USA]

For me Overlanding eventually involves rock crawling, of my top 10 favorites 2/3rds involve some sort of rock crawling. Some harder then others, sure. But a bombproof rig these can be, and with only a handful of mods for serious rock crawling. Instead of years and years of plastic chopping and upgrading a simple lift and tires will allow you to go anywhere but a buggy trail, and GET HOME. However I have no interest in OHV parks, never have. Given we do not have a lot of time left for overlanding in the US everyone should be aiming to enjoy what we have left until its all closed by the Preservationist movement.

I think that ship sailed. The public is swayed by the imagery. And the popular trails definitely look degraded.

It’s the same with the van life get together’s out in the desert. When you start getting 10,000 people, and a publicly visible murderer (Petito case), Public opinion is easily swayed.

In Michigan, there is just orders of magnitude more traffic down the trails today, then there was 20 years ago.

 

[Tom109]

Exactly. And this probably represents a good chunk of us in the NA market. I will be taking my truck off-road as much as I can, but I’m not going to be hitting the Rock Gardens at any OHV parks.

…But a bombproof rig these can be, and with only a handful of mods for serious rock crawling. Instead of years and years of plastic chopping and upgrading a simple lift and tires will allow you to go anywhere but a buggy trail, and GET HOME.

Not planning on rock crawling either, but the East Coast (NA) has its own version of this and lot of rock deposits. I will be adding a minimum layer of protection as these rocks like to come out of nowhere to challenge pieces of your ride. The Gren will do just fine.

 

[Krabby]

Not planning on rock crawling either, but the East Coast (NA) has its own version of this and lot of rock deposits. I will be adding a minimum layer of protection as these rocks like to come out of nowhere to challenge pieces of your ride. The Gren will do just fine.

Exactly Tom. We know how how things are put this way. Rocks are always there and I’ll attack thing as I did in the Pumpkin and my Series - all three super capable trucks.

Any word this morning?

 

[Tom109]

Exactly Tom. We know how how things are put this way. Rocks are always there and I’ll attack thing as I did in the Pumpkin and my Series - all three super capable trucks.

Any word this morning?

Awaiting update (tomorrow) on roof rack.

I will add that they had 70 vehicles on their lot, which they said is about max capacity.