Dual double cardan joint 1350 front driveshaft and factory CV discussion.

[Bodhi’s Grenadier]

View: https://youtu.be/68OnPC5TgsI?si=rJ8IGB-3z_ykXnOy

View: https://youtu.be/8HP387BhRk8?si=-4N1D5syNy-RAG39

 

[GrenADV]

Awesome stuff @Bodhi’s Grenadier Thanks for the informative video on this! Looking forward to seeing more details on the drive shaft.

 

[Tom D]

Looks good! One comment is that the adaptors are quite thick, further shortening the shaft. Could it be built with a flange straight off the UJ ? That would give maybe another inch + of length..

 

[NQ94]

Looks good! One comment is that the adaptors are quite thick, further shortening the shaft. Could it be built with a flange straight off the UJ ? That would give maybe another inch + of length..

ISO flanges are available that would eliminate the spacers and allow a longer driveshaft not sure if they are available for Spicer 1350 shaft assemblies. Iveco/SCAM used two ISO double cardan joints one at each end for the rear driveshaft of the live axle Daily 4x4s.

 

[Logsplitter]

So having had my prop shaft fail at the joint that I now know is a cv joint. I’m only acquainted with UJ’s
Why have Ineos gone with a CV joint on the prop shafts when from what I can gather on the internet they are not as robust as UJ ‘s . Do any other large 4x4’s go with CV joints on the prop shafts.
What’s the consensus regarding whether the failed joint is just an isolated bad joint or whether it just ain’t up to the job as someone mentioned in another thread. Interested to know your thoughts.
On the plus side we’ve all got five years warranty to work out whether the CV joints are a weak point so plenty of time to put lots of miles on the Grenadier and test it out.

 

[Tom D]

So having had my prop shaft fail at the joint that I now know is a cv joint. I’m only acquainted with UJ’s
Why have Ineos gone with a CV joint on the prop shafts when from what I can gather on the internet they are not as robust as UJ ‘s . Do any other large 4x4’s go with CV joints on the prop shafts.
What’s the consensus regarding whether the failed joint is just an isolated bad joint or whether it just ain’t up to the job as someone mentioned in another thread. Interested to know your thoughts.
On the plus side we’ve all got five years warranty to work out whether the CV joints are a weak point so plenty of time to put lots of miles on the Grenadier and test it out.

Most propshafts used to be single UJ (cardan) joints. (Think old land rover) These have the issue that they do not rotate evenly and are more prone to more wear and vibration than a CV (constant velocity). However UJ’s are probably stronger. The uneven rotation of a UJ gets worse as the angles increase. This is where a double cardan comes in. A double cardan is two UJ’s connected together, they are offset so the uneven rotation and vibration is evened out. Double cardan joints can handle much more extreme angles than single.
I think the move to CV joints is because they run much smother and are maintenance free. Their downside is that they get weaker as the angles increase as the joints are running at the ends of the fingers. This is why IFS vehicles are more prone to break a CV at extreme steering angles.
The front axle on the grenadier has double cardan joints inside it.

With the grenadier at standard height I think the CV joints should be fine, the issue seems to be a manufacturing / design fault with the circlip coming off the end of the shaft allowing the joint to separate.

 

[Logsplitter]

Most propshafts used to be single UJ (cardan) joints. (Think old land rover) These have the issue that they do not rotate evenly and are more prone to more wear and vibration than a CV (constant velocity). However UJ’s are probably stronger. The uneven rotation of a UJ gets worse as the angles increase. This is where a double cardan comes in. A double cardan is two UJ’s connected together, they are offset so the uneven rotation and vibration is evened out. Double cardan joints can handle much more extreme angles than single.
I think the move to CV joints is because they run much smother and are maintenance free. Their downside is that they get weaker as the angles increase as the joints are running at the ends of the fingers. This is why IFS vehicles are more prone to break a CV at extreme steering angles.
The front axle on the grenadier has double cardan joints inside it.

With the grenadier at standard height I think the CV joints should be fine, the issue seems to be a manufacturing / design fault with the circlip coming off the end of the shaft allowing the joint to separate.

Thanks for that comprehensive reply. I’m familiar with UJ ,s as used to grease them all the time on my Defender and Hilux. Also Tractors power take off has UJ,s or a type of and I’m very familiar with tractors.
The Grenadier having double cardan joints in the front axle is where I was getting confused as I had it in my head someone mentioned the Grenadier had them and just assumed the prop shafts had them and the front axles had CV,s without taking much notice myself when underneath my vehicle of what was actually in place , even taking a picture of my broken prop shaft still didn’t make my brain click into place. My age I guess . A good learning lesson for me.
I’m hoping the C clip/circlip is an isolated issue that Ineos can identify the cause and easily rectify. I’d be pretty gobsmacked if after all the testing Ineos did including some pretty tough stuff I’m aware of in Southern Africa that a potentially weak CV joint wasn’t highlighted before. They must have weighed up the pros and cons of various joints and the potential consequences of failure In a remote region given what market the Grenadier is aimed at.

 

[Tom D]

Just for clarity the two double cardan joints are inside the front axle where the king pin / swivel joints are. They transmit drive to the front wheels from the front axle shaft. I am mentioning this as I see loads of confusion on here and elsewhere mixing up CV / UJ Cardan / Double Cardan joints and using the terms interchangeably. They are 3 different things. Not saying you’ve got it wrong Logsplitter but I think to the layman its very confusing.
If CV joints are run at the right angles they are probably better than UJ’s (cardan).

If you really want to nerd out…

Constant-velocity joint - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Logsplitter]

Thanks for that. I’ll watch it but being not very good at terminology I readily mix things up and expect everyone else to understand what I mean. I m constantly telling my wife , you know what I mean when I’ve said things wrong or used the wrong words. Saying that I’m quite prepared to take things apart and try to fix anything as I often have to do for my work.

 

[ECrider]

Thanks for that. I’ll watch it but being not very good at terminology I readily mix things up and expect everyone else to understand what I mean. I m constantly telling my wife , you know what I mean when I’ve said things wrong or used the wrong words. Saying that I’m quite prepared to take things apart and try to fix anything as I often have to do for my work.

don't worry mate I often mix my Kardashiuns up as well

 

[Tazzieman]

Somebody whould ask the head of engineering why a CV propshaft was preferred in this vehicle.
Over to whoever. I'm not that well connected myself

 

[Johnp123]

Very much looking forward to hearing more. I have gone through 2 front drive shafts now, post Eibach lift. Pics attached of issue.

 

[anand]

Very much looking forward to hearing more. I have gone through 2 front drive shafts now, post Eibach lift. Pics attached of issue.

Replaced it twice and you still have the lift installed?!

 

[Johnp123]

Yes... Haven't replaced it the second time yet. Trying to figure out my options and if I just need to go back to the original springs.
Have a call into Eibach. Reached out to a couple places about custom shaft. So far, Tom Woods can't.

 

[bamanuke]

Yes... Haven't replaced it the second time yet. Trying to figure out my options and if I just need to go back to the original springs.
Have a call into Eibach. Reached out to a couple places about custom shaft. So far, Tom Woods can't.

I have reached out to Eibach as well. Awaiting a response. I plan to remove my lift as soon as I get the Grenadier back from the dealer. I should have never assumed that the lift had been vetted just because the lift springs were from the OEM manufacturer.

 

[Tom D]

I dropped in to a local propshaft manufacturer today, we put the car up on the ramp and they measured up for a new replacement front propshaft. He said there was a couple of options. A different CV shaft whith a wider angle of operation or a double cardan type. I am awaiting prices for both.
Once I know I’ll let you all know…

One thing that they did say was that the circlip issue was almost certainly a manufacturing fault, i.e. the clip was not installed properly. He said that if it was it’s highly unlikely to fail in that way. The issues with larger angles on lifted vehicles remain however.

 

[Shroomy]

Very much looking forward to hearing more. I have gone through 2 front drive shafts now, post Eibach lift. Pics attached of issue.

How long has this 2nd shaft been installed miles? any extreme off-roading to have the boots ripped that bad? Curious as I have only had my lift and tires put on 2 weeks now with about 200 road miles.

 

[LeeroyJ]

This is disappointing (the failures, not the cool fix from Bodhi). One of the selling points that Ineos advertised in the early days was the fact that the drive train is designed by a tractor company and very robust. Having the axles fail from a 2.5” lift is crazy. 4 or 5 inch plus i can understand, but 2.5 is within the normal flex operation of even an unlifted Grenadier. This is really not “built for purpose” and imho is something that Ineos should be looking at as a potential recall issue.

 

[anand]

Having the axles fail from a 2.5” lift is crazy. 4 or 5 inch plus i can understand, but 2.5 is within the normal flex operation of even an unlifted Grenadier. This is really not “built for purpose” and imho is something that Ineos should be looking at as a potential recall issue.

I think the problem is that while it is within the normal range of flex of the suspension, it adds more heat/stress on the boot because of the increased angle. Flexing the front suspension down 2.5" whilst off road is totally normal, but it is usually at fairly slow speeds or for very brief periods (such as traveling over bumps/whoops at speed). In the case of the lift, now that boot is in that position constantly and much higher speeds (which equates to heat)

 

[shiv.nandak]

Very much looking forward to hearing more. I have gone through 2 front drive shafts now, post Eibach lift. Pics attached of issue.

Dang, I guess I need to put any lift plans on hold.. I don't have free time to be dealing with drivetrain issues.