Diesel vs Gas & Implications for RTW

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Hi folks,

This could have fit in my other thread about “how you’ll build it”, but I think the gas vs diesel discussion warrants it’s own thread.

I would LOVE to get the Gren powered by a rumbley little diesel motor — that’s how it should be, in my minds eye. But, my use case is international travel, and there are two big barriers that I can see. The first is I’ve heard they don’t plan on bringing the diesel to North America (Sad news indeed!). The second though is related to fuel quality standards.

Modern diesels require ULSD - Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel - which is only available in Australia, North America, and Europe widely. It’s available in pockets of the rest of the world (major cities), but not in rural areas. Using regular sulphur content diesel clogs up the emissions systems on most modern cars. 

Now, I can get around problem 1) as I have the option of actually making a purchase in Europe and starting my trip from there, but 2) has me thinking that I’ll have to go with a petrol motor. 

What is everyone else thinking? Gas or Diesel? And if Diesel, what’s your speculation on the rig’s ability to run on less than ideal fuel?

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Diesel for range hands down wins in every aspect. Also low down torque and general drivability for this type of vehicle. Having said that petrol/ gasoline engines are cheaper to maintain and easier to fuel, unless it's the higher octane fuel thats required then you're stuck in the more distant parts fo the world. 

But a diesel can be made to run on old vegetable oil if you really need it, emissions system will make a bit of a fuss. But it can still burn it.

Either way I think you're probably better off with diesel over gasoline if you can get the vehicle in your chosen country with that engine.

I just hope they put in the effort for the emissions stuff required for the North American market. If Fiat can do it with Jeep then BMW can do it with Grenadier.

Just my 2p

 

[d1rty]

BMW has recent history with this family of diesels in the US, right?  Shouldn't be hard, but I guess going through all the EPA paperwork/testing/etc might be cost prohibitive.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Probably, but we can live in hope. 

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Is there any track record of people running the BMW diesels on high sulphur diesel? For instance is anyone aware of an X5 with a DEF/emissions delete?

I'm not willing to do this day-to-day; some people do emissions deletes on their trucks but I don't think that's necessary unless one is running bad fuel (which, as before, in North America is a non-issue because the type of fuel is strictly legislatively controlled). But, if I can get my diesel running as designed, and then be able to bypass or take off a system AND flash the ECU/main computer accordingly once I cross a border into high sulphur diesel fuel territories, that would be great. But, availability in North America is only half the equation; if the motor won't mote on bad diesel regardless of emissions, the petrol will be the better choice for me.

Of course maybe I just need to buy one of each ? - take the gas one international and keep the diesel for more local trips. I'll have to see if the money tree harvest is good this spring!

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Just found this on Reuters

"Gary Pearson, who heads up INEOS Automotive’s markets in the UK, Middle East and North Africa, said the combustion engine technology the company is using is right for today’s market.But with bans on fossil-fuel vehicles looming in Europe, the company is looking at hydrogen fuel-cell technology for future zero-emission versions of the Grenadier rather than going electric.“As electric technology moves on, it may well become right for us,” Pearson said. “But today in terms of range, the weight of batteries... in a vehicle that needs to pull things, lift things, carry things, that’s not necessarily right for us at the moment.”An agreement between parent company INEOS and Hyundai to explore opportunities for hydrogen production and supply includes evaluating using the South Korean carmaker’s fuel-cell system in the Grenadier."


So it would seem that they are not going to be a one and done.

 

[Paachi]

My 2 cents as someone with an old school diesel (1997 Mercedes OM606 turbo with an IDI engine)

We (and I) love to romanticize diesels. They are forbidden fruit here in United States. They are great in terms of stump pulling torque and better economy and ergo better range. However, in the modern context of emissions, DEF etc. I simply can’t see the allure. I will take a modern gasoline engine over diesel.  To quote Scott Brady : In most places of the world, the first vehicle to access it is a motorcycle/ moped. And they run on petrol.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

My 2 cents as someone with an old school diesel (1997 Mercedes OM606 turbo with an IDI engine)

We (and I) love to romanticize diesels. They are forbidden fruit here in United States. They are great in terms of stump pulling torque and better economy and ergo better range. However, in the modern context of emissions, DEF etc. I simply can’t see the allure. I will take a modern gasoline engine over diesel.  To quote Scott Brady : In most places of the world, the first vehicle to access it is a motorcycle/ moped. And they run on petrol.

I 100% agree - especially on the “romantic” observation. The range is a nice allure but with a payload like this and one Jerry can for the petrol rig, the stock petrol and stock diesel should have a similar range. 
Romance is an important part of life though ?

 

[Paachi]

Hehe. That diesel clatter..Le sigh. I will just drive local with my windows down to hear the clatter and then the turbo whistle..just for shits and giggles

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Just read a report from the Australian press where they sight power and torque figures..."Though details on it remain light at this stage, the off-road ute will have the wagon’s 3.0-litre BMW-sourced straight-six petrol (210kW 282hp/450Nm 331lb.ft) or diesel (185kW 248hp/550Nm 404lb.ft) engine, an eight-speed automatic transmission, permanent four-wheel drive, and front, centre and rear locking differentials."

https://apple.news/AN5gf7zm-QwWnvHOKu5THNA

Thats the first time I've seen power actually quoted. Now whether this is real or just shoddy speculative reporting we will see.

Assuming they are using the BMW B58 the standard torque and power figures are :

(281 kW 382 hp/502 Nm 369 lb.ft) for the BMW application
(210 kW 282 hp/450 Nm 331 lb.ft) for the Grenadier application 
And assuming that they are using the B57D30o0 (thats the one with a single turbocharger) then the standard torque and power figures are:

(195 kW 261 hp/620 Nm 457 lb.ft) for the BMW application
(185 kW 248 hp/550 Nm 404 lb.ft) for the Grenadier application

So those figures if correct are significantly detuned from the highest level of tune for the engines, thats some reassurance for me that this thing will be a bit more robust than the naysayers are preaching.

 

[Tazzieman]

The naysayers speak from the experience of driving BMW cars , or engines with the Grenadier's spec?
After hard testing ,  we should know whether the engine's are up to the task, or whether they are prone to grenade.Only a fully loaded test will allow that assessment. That is , doesn't count!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Agreed, @Tazzieman I've heard in one of the videos that the Grenadier's testing regimen is at double payload (4000 lbs) for the exact reason you stated - it needs to be tested to the extremes. That is confidence inspiring.

@Stu_Barnes, good catch on those power figures. I love a de-tuned engine; my motorbike has Triumph's legendary inline Triple that they use in their street bikes, but it's heavily detuned for the Tiger and still puts out plenty of power but with a significant reduction in RPMs in regular use, which translates into longer lasting engine. 

So now to throw a curve ball in the mix: When I was playing with the configurator, for a brief moment I had 4 engine options. Two were the B58 with a single turbo (gas and diesel), but there were also two that were listed as having twin turbos. I wish I took a screenshot, but when I went back to build again (you've all done the same thing at least a few times, right?) those twin-turbo options weren't available.

I 100% know I saw what I saw (Sorry, no screen shots, I didn't expect the options to disappear on reload), the only question is what that means. Future offering of twin turbo motors? Does BMW offer the B58 in twin turbo configuration? Or just a tech glitch? Time will tell!

(Personally I prefer naturally aspirated over turbo charged anything but I think that's a relic of the reputation of Turbos blowing up after 100k kilometres.  I understand they are much better these days). 

 

[Red pepper]

This is the options we have

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

[QUOTE username=Red pepper userid=8373838 postid=1328806758]This is the options we have

[/QUOTE]

That's interesting - I'll take a look to see if those are the options I have now too. Like I said, it was on my first build (which was the night they launched it, so it was early days with lots of tech issues) that there were 4 engine options, the only difference being some were called "twin turbo" instead of "Turbo". But 10 minutes later when I did another build that wasn't there.

(Cue spooky music, I guess?)

Likely it was a tech error, given the diesel is a twin turbo.

 

[Paachi]

@ChasingOurTrunks I saw the 4 engine options as well briefly. I think it was a tech error. However even today if you don’t login with your region settings then you can build one out with international options. Ex: 5 door, 2 seater diesel. Plus you can see a blurred out view of the pick up/ Ute. The moment you login here in the US it’s the 5 door passenger with petrol only ?

I also saw that video with the double payload testing. Given the engineering specs I feel the frame and axles should be easily able to cope with the load. More often than not it’s the brakes and cooling that fall short

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Ok, so thats a pretty specific tech error to have a separate pair of additional engines for the Grenadier that specifically say twin turbocharging....

So hear me out with this.

I'm thinking that maybe it wasn't such an error (as in an option thats fleshed out as a stand alone item) and perhaps an Easter egg for a more powerful option after the initial release. They have the option of lockers already, if this were intended as a solely off road / work vehicle, why would you have an option for lockers and not have it as a standard fitment? I'm not referring to fleet vehicles here, that would be a separate options list I'm sure.

Its not a far stretch for them to go a bit more upmarket with this vehicle, they already have the modern functional design dashboard and leather seats as an option, leather steering wheel is not an option, just the color. In a modern vehicle what really makes it luxury/premium? Electric seats, power windows (I've not seen any window winders on the renderings...), additional soundproofing and central locking with smart key. Everything else the Grenadier has, they've been taking time at great lengths to emphasize the ride and handling of the Grenadier, which would be the last thing on the list to make it a luxury/premium vehicle. 

Then we get to power, more power has always been seen as a more luxury/premium offering.  A more powerful option would perhaps appeal more to the mall crawlers to make this a bit more main stream friendly. After all Ineos will be in this business to make money after the passion project wears off, and the more specced up a certain model vehicle is the higher the margin and we know Sir Jim is a canny fellow.

A more powerful variant would be easier to go toe to toe with LR and MB.

Let's not forget that people pay an obscene amount of money for a modernized original defender with mod cons, so the market is there.

 

[Stu_Barnes]

The multiple petrol/gasoline and Diesel engine options for the grenadier and its potential implications for a more luxurious version now has its own thread.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

@Stu_Barnes, thanks for starting that other thread on the idea of a premium engine option - that's got me interested for sure!

With regards to this Diesel for RTW use, obviously anything I write here is speculation as we don't know exactly what kind of motor we're going to end up with. We know it's a B58, but we don't know what exactly comes in the box. 

Before I type any more, I want to make one thing abundantly clear: I do not condone, nor would I ever promote, doing any sort of tampering with a vehicle to avoid local regulation. This is especially true with emissions systems and their associated regulations -- I get that 100 of the largest companies are responsible for 70% of emissions in the world, and that whether I have a DEF delete on my truck or not isn't going to rush us towards a climate catastrophe any quicker on it's own, but the fact is we're all in this together and need to do our part to keep our "pale blue dot" healthy. It's the only home we've got, after all. 

However there are real-world reasons for doing modifications like this in some cases, such as travel outside of North America where perhaps a diesel is preferable to gas for some reason (perhaps there's a range requirement or a need to have common fuels across a convoy). Since that need is purely speculative, and our information on the engine is mostly speculative, buckle up for a whole lotta speculation in the next few words:

I've been doing some late night reading on B58s installed in other BMWs, and I found a bunch of information relating to an Exhaust Gas Recirculating system. This is the first bit of the emissions system that I think might need to be tackled in order for this rig to run on High Sulphur Diesel in remote parts of the world. It appears that this system diverts exhaust gasses from the exhaust and passes them through a heat exchanger. This heat exchanger cools those gasses and pushes them back into the cylinders. This displaces air in the fuel/air mix, but since Diesels tend to flow more air than needed anyway, they can often go as high as 50% exhaust gas recirculation.

This apparently improves emissions, however it comes with three major cons. First is fuel economy; folks who have bypassed this system are reporting that they are getting as much as 100 extra kilometres on a tank of fuel. This is significant, especially in a remote touring context. I do not know how the EGR system both improves emissions, but reduces efficiency to this degree, so more learning required. And, this information is anecdotal off of other BMW owner forums that I've stumbled upon so it may not be valid for every case.

The second con is that recirculating exhaust gasses into the engine introduces carbon and particles that are then forced into the cylinders, often past the pistons and rings and into the crank area. This is not a huge deal as B58s are proven to be reliable in general, but introducing grit and grime will, in every case, effect the long-term reliability of any mechanical part. The B58 surely cannot be the exception to this rule.

And third, the EGR system itself is an "extra system", and that introduces a set of failure points. Some folks report cracking in the heat exchanger of the EGR system, which triggers a limp home and all sorts of other things.

The moral of the story is that the EGR system is part of the B58 design, but all of the above "cons" disappear when the system is bypassed. This may be illegal in your area and not something you should do for the fun of it. This is knowledge I am sharing so we better understand how our vehicles operate and can thus select the best engine option for our use case.

The exhaust gasses are not being recirculated all the time, and are controlled by a valve that is opened or closed. This valve is controlled electronically, and can be effective disabled by using a paperclip to push a pin out of a connector. Apparently this can throw a code though there is a way around that by flashing the ECU, and tunes are available for the B58 in BMWs for this purpose. 


The two questions I have:

1) Does the EGR system get clogged up when run on high sulphur diesel? If not, perhaps messing with it is totally unnecessary.
2) What other systems do B58s have that would also need to be addressed to work on worldwide diesel? DEF systems? Regenerator cycles that burn off sulphur in the Cat Converters?

As I learn more, I shall share what I find out, but anyone with more experiences with this stuff feel free to chime in!

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Here's a semi-related article on the most common problems that are faced by the B58; this is not a simple engine but appears to be a reliable one. Still, there's some kind of heat capturing system that is supposed to hold heat in for 36 hours? And this suggestion that the solenoids and timing chain are at the back of the engine is interesting to me too.

https://bmwtuning.co/the-4-most-common-bmw-b58-engine-problems/

 

[Stu_Barnes]

Well this is the first time I've thought thank you for taking a mass market engine Ineos. The amount of online information about both (all 4) of the engine options is bewildering. I'm not even going to get into the performance tunes available for these engines and BMW's in general, thats for another thread. But rest assured if you want to burn some rubber then there's a tune already worked out for you.  

https://www.bimmerfest.com

Check out the bimmerfest forum to really indulge your inner geek.


Anyway back to the Grenadier

The Diesel variant is the BMW B57 engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B57
The Gasoline variant is the BMW B58 engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B58

Both are from the same modular engine family with the obvious differences between petrol and diesel as well as some ancillary equipment.

Here is the Technical Overview of both of these engine variants for those that are interested.

 B57 Engine (Diesel).pdf      B58 Engine (Gasoline).pdf     

Enjoy the light reading.