A bit more on the cancellation/delay

parb · Oct 15, 2024

No doubt about it @pmatusov the energy density problem is the true challenge for EV and other battery technologies. The weight/energy ratio as expressed as density/volumetric space is a real issue. I think charging times etc isn't quite as complicated problem as the energy density problem.

For me hybrid is a pretty decent tradeoff for vehicles used beyond city driving/near distance commuting. For short haul driving i think EV is not a bad choice.
I rented a hybrid in san diego and drove it back to SF on one 20 gallon tank of gas. Sure it was a smaller vehicle (mercedes C class i think) but it was superbly efficient with its energy consumption, and it was clear that the hybrid drive did its part when i accelerated so the gas engine could run at cruise speeds when it runs at peak efficiency.
Totally made a point for me that i thought was excellent. My next vehicle is likely a hybrid vehicle, specifically a mild hybrid as the marketing speak goes.

Jeffrey · Oct 15, 2024

I can't participate in this thread any longer. There's too much rambling useless statements that make no sense and don't apply to the original topic. Who cares how many kWh are in a jerry can? What does that even mean? Who cares if a EV charging station has running water? WTF? I charged my EV many times and running water was never required or even thought of. WTF? I just charged my car and drove on. People actually thought that you can add water to gasoline? Where? How many? Sounds like media sensationalism. Who starts this garbage? "Charging the batteries quickly isn't." Isn't what? What are you trying to say? Who cares how many pumps or chargers were busy at the exact moment you drove by? What possible importance is such useless info? In ten minutes it will be different. And every minute after that. I can't understand a thing you wrote. You're comparing the time it takes to fill your gas tank to how long a battery charge takes? Who cares? This comparison is useless. Just fill or charge and drive on.

I'm outa here.......

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 15, 2024

pmatusov said:
I just came back from a three-day weekend trip from San Diego to Utah. On the way back, stopped at a gas station near Yermo on I-15.
There were six pumps, and about 20 charger stations. All pumps and maybe five chargers were busy.
Maybe, just maybe, it had to do with the fact that waiting for your battery to be charged in a 95F heat next to the gas station/convenience store without running water in the middle of Mojave desert is far more unpleasant than filling up a gas tank.

EVs are a proven means of transportation, meaning they can move under their power and move some payload. Charging the batteries quickly isn't.
In the energy terms, a typical 8-gpm gas pump equates ~293 kW*h in each minute, or 17.6MW.
Even at the miserable efficiency of an ICE, it is still a giant number.
Likewise, a 5-gallon jerry can holds the thermal equivalent of 183 kW*h.

Ok first I have to say I own TWO Grenadiers and absolutely love them, obviously as bought a 2nd. However, I also have a 2023 Tesla Model S Plaid. So I personally know about charging an EV on a regular basis. I know there is a lot of misinformation on them as I read about it all the time. Btw, I am not arguing with you, I am just stating my personal experiences with an EV, like I do when I defend the Grenadier on here by the haters, which I do a lot.

I have used superchargers (these are the only ones available for public use like gas pumps for ICE vehicles) on NUMEROUS occasions. So many times, I cannot even give an estimated number of times, but A LOT! I have never sat longer than 20 minutes charging mine up. Most times 12-15 minutes. That may seem like a long time, but to me it is nothing. Plus, you can watch Netflix, Hulu, etc on the large screen inside the vehicle while it charges & the a/C blows cold as a mother in the Tesla. The other option is a charger at home and yes that does take hours as it pulls power from your home, but you are home and just plug in and walk away. It’s way too easy.

I actually was anti-EV until I drove a friends and then bought one, and it is absolutely the easiest vehicle I have ever owned to maintain (and I have owned many vehicles). Some say they have no soul but when I pull away from Hellcats, New Z06 vettes, Camaro zr1’s, Mustang Shelby Cobras, etc etc literally walks any of them from a red light, to me that’s soul. We definitely don’t have to agree, but until you own and drive one regularly, you can’t really understand the ease of care and speed they have (not all are as fast as the 3 motor plaid, but even the 2 motor versions are quick). Btw, I don’t take mine to a speedway type race track with curves and turns to run against Porsche’s, Vettes, etc as that’s the first thing people say, is it won’t handle like them on a race course. Guess what, most races, and I am not condoning street racing by any means, but most are done red light to red light and not up and down and around streets and corners like fast & furious movies. And the red light to red light king is the Model S Plaid. Constant 0-60’s in 2.3 seconds and 9.4 quarter mile times are no joke. Yes there are newer models coming out that tie this or beat it by a few tenths, but they are usually $250k to Millions of dollars. These Plaids can now be bought for the same price as a Grenadier.

Another misconception, after you floor it a couple of times the battery is dead. Each time you race light to light may drop the SOC (state of charge) 2-3%. So even if you were at 80%, you can run many races before it gets in the 10-20%. There is a YouTuber that races his plaid at the 1/4 mile tracks and runs back to back to back races with the radio and a/c on and constant 9.3 to 9.4 quarter mile times. All the ICE vehicles have to take a break after 1 or 2 races to cool down and not overheat. Btw, this is not a ICE vs EV post as I have only one EV but several ICE vehicles and I love the sound my Mustang makes (racetrack vehicle too much to list here), so I am only explaining that EV’s get a bad wrap. Are they perfect, of course not. My 2 Grenadiers are now my favorite vehicles I have ever owned and they are not perfect either. Anyway, sorry I go off on a ramble sometimes, ok a lot of the times, but I think there is a happy medium between ICE & EV’s……

pmatusov · Oct 15, 2024

Jeffrey said:
I can't understand a thing you wrote.

Well, it's your problem, isn't it?

pmatusov · Oct 15, 2024

Dual Grenny Guy said:
Ok first I have to say I own TWO Grenadiers and absolutely love them, obviously as bought a 2nd. However, I also have a 2023 Tesla Model S Plaid. So I personally know about charging an EV on a regular basis. I know there is a lot of misinformation on them as I read about it all the time. Btw, I am not arguing with you, I am just stating my personal experiences with an EV, like I do when I defend the Grenadier on here by the haters, which I do a lot.

I honestly don't know why are we discussing road-based EVs here. I would buy a Fusilier for me or my wife to drive to work, and happily drive the Grenadier into the sticks. I have solar panels at home, and my workplace has EV chargers next to every building, so daily life with one would not be a problem to me.
I would not, however, take a Fusilier on any road trip exceeding two or three hours (unless it is a hybrid with at least 30% capacity allocated to ICE).

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 15, 2024

pmatusov said:
I honestly don't know why are we discussing road-based EVs here. I would buy a Fusilier for me or my wife to drive to work, and happily drive the Grenadier into the sticks. I have solar panels at home, and my workplace has EV chargers next to every building, so daily life with one would not be a problem to me.
I would not, however, take a Fusilier on any road trip exceeding two or three hours (unless it is a hybrid with at least 30% capacity allocated to ICE).

Only wrote a response on EV’s based on your posting negatively on them. Just like you have the right to post your opinions on things, I have the right to post mine.

it’s no hard feelings towards you at all. We just disagree on the EV thing….thats it and only reasons it’s still being discussed. I would say “cheers mate” but see your a USA Grenadier owner. I would offer to meet up for coffee one day, but I’m in Louisiana and you’re WAAAAYYY over in Cali. I may make it over there one of these years, but if you’re ever close to Louisiana give me a shout out…..

pmatusov · Oct 15, 2024

Dual Grenny Guy said:
Only wrote a response on EV’s based on your posting negatively on them. Just like you have the right to post your opinions on things, I have the right to post mine. it’s no hard feelings towards you at all. We just disagree on the EV thing….thats it and only reasons it’s still being discussed. I would say “cheers mate” but see your a USA Grenadier owner. I would offer to meet up for coffee one day, but I’m in Louisiana and you’re WAAAAYYY over in Cali. I may make it over there one of these years, but if you’re ever close to Louisiana give me a shout out…..

I have not posted anything negative on EVs. Look up. I am a physicist/EE, so I cannot possibly argue against something with vastly higher efficiency than an ICE-powered vehicle. But I am very aware of their limitations, as well of the NIMBY environmental approach of some EV owners.

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 15, 2024

pmatusov said:
I have not posted anything negative on EVs. Look up. I am a physicist/EE, so I cannot possibly argue against something with vastly higher efficiency than an ICE-powered vehicle. But I am very aware of their limitations, as well of the NIMBY environmental approach of some EV owners.

Ok maybe me and couple of my EV owner buddies (who are not members of this forum but I showed them your post above that I quoted and responded to) and we all must have the wrong idea of negativity as we all agreed it was negative in nature.

You talk about how all the EV chargers were mostly empty at a certain location in the desert and implied EV drivers can’t handle heat or non running water locations, you may have been being sarcastic but it still comes across as non-EV friendly. Then you mention that charging time takes too long (I.E. “Charging the batteries quickly isn't”). Regardless, if you’re an EV person it definitely doesn’t come across that way. Another forum member even responded to your post as well & appeased they also read it as being negative. Hey, at least we can agree on the Grenadier being awesome!!

pmatusov · Oct 15, 2024

Dual Grenny Guy said:
Ok maybe me and couple of my EV owner buddies (who are not members of this forum but I showed them your post above that I quoted and responded to) and we all must have the wrong idea of negativity as we all agreed it was negative in nature.

You talk about how all the EV chargers were mostly empty at a certain location in the desert and implied EV drivers can’t handle heat or non running water locations, you may have been being sarcastic but it still comes across as non-EV friendly. Then you mention that charging time takes too long (I.E. “Charging the batteries quickly isn't”). Regardless, if you’re an EV person it definitely doesn’t come across that way. Another forum member even responded to your post as well & appeased they also read it as being negative. Hey, at least we can agree on the Grenadier being awesome!!

Man, aren't we sensitive? Why can't we be rational every once in a while?
I never said or implied EV drivers specifically can't handle heat or non-running toilets. All drivers can't, to different extents. I also don't know what types of chargers this gas station provides - whether it takes 15 min or 40 min or an hour to get going to LA (you also have no knowledge of it, so you can't say it doesn't take too long).
I am not an EV person, but I would buy a Fusilier whether it comes as a full EV or a hybrid - just knowing what I know about charging infrastructure, I'd never take it to Death Valley or ski slopes.
"Another forum member" responded with an angry rant despite admitting that he didn't understand what I was talking about.

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 15, 2024

pmatusov said:
Man, aren't we sensitive? Why can't we be rational every once in a while?
I never said or implied EV drivers specifically can't handle heat or non-running toilets. All drivers can't, to different extents. I also don't know what types of chargers this gas station provides - whether it takes 15 min or 40 min or an hour to get going to LA (you also have no knowledge of it, so you can't say it doesn't take too long).
I am not an EV person, but I would buy a Fusilier whether it comes as a full EV or a hybrid - just knowing what I know about charging infrastructure, I'd never take it to Death Valley or ski slopes.
"Another forum member" responded with an angry rant despite admitting that he didn't understand what I was talking about.

Ok I get it now, you must be my ex-wive’s long lost sibling as appears you too are the “never wrong” personalities. I’m the sensitive one? I simply posted a reply to the anti EV post and was done with it at that point, even offered to meet up for coffee…..never called you any names or degraded you in anyway, I simply was defending EV’s…..yet here we still are talking about it…..,

Tomdoc · Oct 16, 2024

I will never, ever have an EV. It is totally impractical for me and there will never be the infrastructure to support such a choice in the UK. That's before we get into the fallacy about ecology and environmental advantages. Utter fantasy.

Tazzieman · Oct 16, 2024

Tomdoc said:
I will never, ever have an EV. It is totally impractical for me and there will never be the infrastructure to support such a choice in the UK. That's before we get into the fallacy about ecology and environmental advantages. Utter fantasy.

We have solar power and hydroelectricity as a backup. Clean.
EV batteries are in great demand as house batteries.
Either from damaged cars or recycled batteries . In Australia at least.

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 16, 2024

Tomdoc said:
I will never, ever have an EV. It is totally impractical for me and there will never be the infrastructure to support such a choice in the UK. That's before we get into the fallacy about ecology and environmental advantages. Utter fantasy.

And that’s absolutely YOUR decision, but I haven’t ran across a post by you putting them down. If so, I will probably respond to it. That’s just ME. Again, I have ZERO issues with people saying what they want, or don’t want, what they are buying or not, etc etc , but that’s not what any of this is about. I was simply explaining MY experiences with an EV and how they differentiate from a non-EV owner. Hey, someone I can finally say, “cheers mate” to….

Anyone reading this, PLEASE note this is NOT ICE vs. EV post. I previously mentioned I have both & that I preferred the ICE

. Btw, I am not an ecologist or an environmentalist or even close, but pretty much most of the items we consume and buy take away from the environment yes? From boxes, to sheet metal, wires, bricks, wood, you name it, it all comes you guessed it the environment. Sure some take more of it to build/construct/maintian, but it ALL comes from the earth and its resources we take and create all these items we use/drive/consume daily. Wait, did I just talk myself into being one?!

pmatusov · Oct 16, 2024

Dual Grenny Guy said:
Ok I get it now, you must be my ex-wive’s long lost sibling as appears you too are the “never wrong” personalities.

Dual Grenny Guy said:
never called you any names or degraded you in anyway

You gotta read what you write, brother.

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 16, 2024

pmatusov said:
You gotta read what you write, brother.

“Never wrong” is calling names or degrading someone, now who is “Mr. Sensitivity”?

Dual Grenny Guy · Oct 16, 2024

pmatusov said:
You gotta read what you write, brother.

On a side note, I was in another thread and saw another post by you mentioning a write up you did, so checked it out. Link below. I have to say, eventhough we don’t agree on EV’s, I give props we’re props are due. That’s one hell of a write up!! VERY nicely done!!

https://3rj.org/Grenadier/

YellowLab · Oct 16, 2024

Jeffrey said:
I can't participate in this thread any longer. There's too much rambling useless statements that make no sense and don't apply to the original topic. Who cares how many kWh are in a jerry can? What does that even mean? Who cares if a EV charging station has running water? WTF? I charged my EV many times and running water was never required or even thought of. WTF? I just charged my car and drove on. People actually thought that you can add water to gasoline? Where? How many? Sounds like media sensationalism. Who starts this garbage? "Charging the batteries quickly isn't." Isn't what? What are you trying to say? Who cares how many pumps or chargers were busy at the exact moment you drove by? What possible importance is such useless info? In ten minutes it will be different. And every minute after that. I can't understand a thing you wrote. You're comparing the time it takes to fill your gas tank to how long a battery charge takes? Who cares? This comparison is useless. Just fill or charge and drive on.

I'm outa here.......

shakesc · Tuesday at 9:18 PM

Well I've just moved from a Ford Mach-e to a Grenadier. Had the Mach-e almost 3 years. Its not bad, generally competent at what it does with all the gadgets you could think of. Overnight electric is cheap as chips and with enough apps you can figure out where to public charge, which I didnt do often. Strangely, although its not a bad drive, I just didnt connect with the car. Its a weird intangible thing.
Why change? Well, I like quirky, want to go exploring with a roof box and generally go through another mid-life crisis

Hoping that the adventures with the Grenadier mean the next one I get is a hybrid maybe full electric but until then enjoy the car (or is it a truck..). Feel like another step in the tech is required.
Having had a 110 Defender in the past (with the OLD 2.5TD) the Grenadier feels quite an update.
If I was doing lots of short , town driving then a Nissan Leaf would be a good addition
At the end of the day its horses for courses, I wanted something that I felt like I could drive anywhere and not break (hopefully)
Oh, I've been a development engineer in major OEMs inc LR, BMW & Ford - so I love the blend in the Grenadier

DaveB · Tuesday at 10:15 PM

I think they may have realised that EV 4wds are only useful in cities
Not much use in Australia

Apparently Australia is absolutely smothered with EV charging stations.
It helps when you use really large icons to show them.
On one stretch of highway to Alice Springs of 254 kms (160 miles) there is one charging station and some great instructions if you can't find it.
There's another one in an aboriginal community, because they all have electric vehicles, called Kiwirrkurra Community and that is only 878 kms away, then you can drive to the Parnngurr charger which is only 748.2 kms away.
Without being judgemental it is wise not to leave your vehicle unattended in many aboriginal communities or towns.
I live in a better location for EV's so if I wanted to drive from my place to Taroom or Rolliston I could stop at Theodore, onl3 372 kms away, where there is a 10 amp outlet for overnight charging, assuming someone isn't already using it or it isn't broken.

TheDocAUS · Wednesday at 8:04 PM

DaveB said:
I think they may have realised that EV 4wds are only useful in cities
Not much use in Australia

Apparently Australia is absolutely smothered with EV charging stations.
It helps when you use really large icons to show them.
On one stretch of highway to Alice Springs of 254 kms (160 miles) there is one charging station and some great instructions if you can't find it.
There's another one in an aboriginal community, because they all have electric vehicles, called Kiwirrkurra Community and that is only 878 kms away, then you can drive to the Parnngurr charger which is only 748.2 kms away.
Without being judgemental it is wise not to leave your vehicle unattended in many aboriginal communities or towns.
I live in a better location for EV's so if I wanted to drive from my place to Taroom or Rolliston I could stop at Theodore, onl3 372 kms away, where there is a 10 amp outlet for overnight charging, assuming someone isn't already using it or it isn't broken.

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I didn't see any EVs after Stanthorpe on my recent Queensland trip. I went out to Eromanga and surrounds.

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A bit more on the cancellation/delay

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