Workshop manual and the point of the state of the construction of a real, full automotive industry

Sam · Oct 20, 2023

As a designer myself, I notice people tend to (dramatically) underestimate the effort of design... so its pleasing to read the OP's enthusiasm for it.

However the appeal here - which I share - is not the information itself, but the possibility of it being put into the hands of owners, as Ineos promised. Sure beats a Haynes manual.

This type of information exists on the hard drives of every modern maker of cars, vacuum cleaners, bottle tops, etc...

Lord Ripon USA · Oct 20, 2023

Say what you’ll do, and DO what you say.
Don’t make excuses.
They said what they’d do previously.
Show me.
Parsing words to create an additional revenue stream is low.

Blackbox88 · Oct 20, 2023

AnD3rew said:
Well the way I read the written promises, providing access for a fee is not specifically excluded, it may well be argued that free access was implied, but it was never specifically promised as far as I can see. Providing access for a fee is still providing access. Not that I am thrilled about it, or defending it. Just when you read it, it doesn’t say free anywhere.

That is true, to be honest I wouldn't be to mad about paying a fee as long as it is not some ridiculous high number.

For most of the car we owned we bought the Haynes manuals which you also had to pay for.

At some point even if they don't fully release it, it will get hacked and downloaded.
Look at details which are sometimes already shared here or at the obd SW ( eg skoda Enyaq, the are already changing codes to change basic settings or even activate paid options) or at the ECU tuning it all is just a matter of time.

In this situation looking at the people who buy grenny (going to do work/repair and modifications) it is way better if the company controls that info at least it will remove the risk for bad info causing the name to have a bad reputation.

James · Oct 20, 2023

Lord Ripon USA said:
Say what you’ll do, and DO what you say.
Don’t make excuses.
They said what they’d do previously.
Show me.
Parsing words to create an additional revenue stream is low.

Be surprised if its about revenue stream. Would expect its more about controlling access, limiting and stabilising user numbers to ensure adequate back end provisioning, which is a total nightmare if you get it wrong, and as before, protecting intellectual property. Im not saying it wont have any price to use, but am suggesting that the practicalities of what they might have aspired to will be pushing certain realities that are pretty solid problems.
when you’ve been sitting in your car, driving it, with the owners grin, and marvelling at how amazing what they have delivered is, you might find a gentler perspective. The car is awesome. It came from a dream. Not everything translates out of dreamworld, sadly - or maybe we’re lucky, because dr#ams are weird!

jwb · Oct 20, 2023

I'll be very disappointed if owners do not have direct access to service/parts manuals, the DIY and remote parts support was a big reason that I was excited early on in this project. I have enough screen shot pdfs for other vehicles.

James · Oct 20, 2023

jwb said:
I'll be very disappointed if owners do not have direct access to service/parts manuals, the DIY and remote parts support was a big reason that I was excited early on in this project. I have enough screen shot pdfs for other vehicles.

Yeah, I was pretty into that idea too. Especially the brief possibility discussed for a whle that we might be able to download it onto the cars screen. Would have been very cool.

Lord Ripon USA · Oct 20, 2023

James said:
Be surprised if its about revenue stream. Would expect its more about controlling access, limiting and stabilising user numbers to ensure adequate back end provisioning, which is a total nightmare if you get it wrong, and as before, protecting intellectual property. Im not saying it wont have any price to use, but am suggesting that the practicalities of what they might have aspired to will be pushing certain realities that are pretty solid problems.
when you’ve been sitting in your car, driving it, with the owners grin, and marvelling at how amazing what they have delivered is, you might find a gentler perspective. The car is awesome. It came from a dream. Not everything translates out of dreamworld, sadly - or maybe we’re lucky, because dr#ams are weird!

Oh please.
The whole concept is to reduce ip.

I’m still trying to rectify how a paid access system would work for the transport companies in Central America, or equatorial Africa. Both of which were cited as important markets that were going to be supported by the free and open access to the service manuals. Simplicity, ease of repair, common fasteners, etc. etc.
Mechanical seats to reduce electrical complexity and negate water intrusion.
It’s a mostly mechanical vehicle. Mature technology.
By design it should be looked at more like a Mahindra tractor than a Koeniggsegg.
It’s got great exterior styling. Tons of curb appeal.

I can see limiting engine/transmission technical access for a leased fleet. It protects residual value.
Not for cash owners.

Everything else? Not so much.
FWIW, they are going to have to change the surface coatings on their rub rails and under carriage. Every unit in North America will have rust running off the Chinese rock rails before the end of the first winter. Accelerated corrosion due to thin coating and road sand/salt abrasion. Seeing the Penner video was a disappointment on that.
Enough so, that I’ll be deleting them from my order.

Also, I really like that many of the members here that have been following this project for several years now, have such good memories.

Simple and repairable doesn’t mean take it to the dealer 12 hours away for me. i’m glad others are still holding on for that.

Jeremy996 · Oct 20, 2023

Lord Ripon USA said:
Oh please.
The whole concept is to reduce ip.

I’m still trying to rectify how a paid access system would work for the transport companies in Central America, or equatorial Africa. Both of which were cited as important markets that were going to be supported by the free and open access to the service manuals. Simplicity, ease of repair, common fasteners, etc. etc.
Mechanical seats to reduce electrical complexity and negate water intrusion.
It’s a mostly mechanical vehicle. Mature technology.
By design it should be looked at more like a Mahindra tractor than a Koeniggsegg.
It’s got great exterior styling. Tons of curb appeal.

I can see limiting engine/transmission technical access for a leased fleet. It protects residual value.
Not for cash owners.

Everything else? Not so much.
FWIW, they are going to have to change the surface coatings on their rub rails and under carriage. Every unit in North America will have rust running off the Chinese rock rails before the end of the first winter. Accelerated corrosion due to thin coating and road sand/salt abrasion. Seeing the Penner video was a disappointment on that.
Enough so, that I’ll be deleting them from my order.

Also, I really like that many of the members here that have been following this project for several years now, have such good memories.

Simple and repairable doesn’t mean take it to the dealer 12 hours away for me. i’m glad others are still holding on for that.

Generally the way the electronic manuals work is you need an Internet connection and an access password. For someone in a factory unit in a built up area, this will be easily achievable. There's no wired Internet at my lock up in Buckminster, Leicestershire and precious little mobile phone signal either! I need a book, DVD or BluRay and a laptop with a BLuRay drive. The need for an access subscription annoys me as well!

It really is not a mainly mechanical vehicle - the engine, gearbox, brakes and dash have more than enough "gubbins" to be a pain. (But massively less than LR, Mercedes, Volvo et al).

Lord Ripon USA · Oct 20, 2023

Jeremy996 said:
Generally the way the electronic manuals work is you need an Internet connection and an access password. For someone in a factory unit in a built up area, this will be easily achievable. There's no wired Internet at my lock up in Buckminster, Leicestershire and precious little mobile phone signal either! I need a book, DVD or BluRay and a laptop with a BLuRay drive. The need for an access subscription annoys me as well!

It really is not a mainly mechanical vehicle - the engine, gearbox, brakes and dash have more than enough "gubbins" to be a pain. (But massively less than LR, Mercedes, Volvo et al).

I don’t think you can build a vehicle with a carburetor and points and still meet US emissions requirements.
Solid axle body -on-frame is definitely mature tech in SUV’s and trucks.
Off the shelf driveline will have plenty of info available.
I’m curious if there a a trailer tune engine/trans/braking chip just waiting.

255/85 · Oct 20, 2023

jwb said:
I'll be very disappointed if owners do not have direct access to service/parts manuals, the DIY and remote parts support was a big reason that I was excited early on in this project. I have enough screen shot pdfs for other vehicles.

Another major point reiterated often and even heard straight from SJR was that Ineos designed and built the Grenadier with long term ownership in mind. Like thirty years. Like forever. That's part of what we're all paying for in terms of durability and ease of repair.

Despite whatever effort Ineos has invested in their proprietary software, nothing will ensure our access to it beyond the lifespan of Ineos Automotive proper. This is not true with published hard copy. If IA shutter the doors in 10 years, or even 20, no one will have access to anything "online" whether free or not.

As an aside...
While I have no interest in computer technology and am certainly not particularly savvy in any of its aspects, I was privy to the inside world of Systems Design since before many here were born and have multiple friends and family that are, or were, code monkeys. I have sometimes been employed to tell literally hundreds of workers what to do with computers. I consider software development a problem solving exercise and not a creative endeavor like art or music. This isn't meant to offend. It's just an FYI for others that may think I'm making wild assumptions.

flynnsk · Nov 10, 2023

Krabby said:
I can't imagine they will in the sense of here you go and just give full access to everyone for free. It's my understanding that companies like Land Rover "rent" that access - $X for X time. Total speculation on my part, but we're certainly not going to get a green Bible.

I'd actually pay extra $ if was bound in Sela Green

Edithol · Aug 27, 2024

I’ve always appreciated the level of detail that goes into creating workshop manuals. The OP’s enthusiasm for putting this kind of information into the hands of owners is something I wholeheartedly support. It's true that this kind of detailed information is stored in the digital archives of every modern manufacturer, from cars to everyday items like vacuum cleaners. The idea of making it accessible to the public is fantastic, as it would empower owners in a way that Haynes manuals never quite could. This approach aligns with the transparency Ineos promised, offering something much richer and more informative.

holdmybeer · Aug 28, 2024

There's a saying as old as the internet: "Information wants to be free."

The publishers of information don't always want this to happen. They've spent time creating a published work and they often seek rent. (Sadly, rent revenue models are more popular now than simple paid ownership. We'll see.) Anyways, they'll get their rent. Probably for a while. Probably from a lot of us.

But I predict from the very beginning of whatever business model IA has for us to access parts and service procedures and diagrams and specifications for our vehicles ... there will be owner activists who feel strongly about making permanent copies for themselves and others and then opting out of a rent scheme. This may or may not be legal. Or moral. People will make their choices

Those with sophistication might crack digital schemes to make their own forever copies. For offline and personal use. Simple folk may just take a ton of screenshots and save them for themselves and others. Passionate owners with time on their hands may compile screenshots of copyrighted information and tables and drawings and compile them into a convenient free PDF for offline use. IMO these are reasonable predictions, based on history.

For legal and diplomatic reasons, I'm sure this forum can't be a place to share copyrighted information without permission. But it will be somewhere. And it may be illegal and immoral. Or maybe illegal but moral.

Tazzieman · Aug 28, 2024

A mate of mine owns a 1952 Bentley. I am quite jealous , espcially as he also has the WSMs to suit!
And I like analog books.

DenisM · Aug 28, 2024

holdmybeer said:
There's a saying as old as the internet: "Information wants to be free."

The publishers of information don't always want this to happen. They've spent time creating a published work and they often seek rent. (Sadly, rent revenue models are more popular now than simple paid ownership. We'll see.) Anyways, they'll get their rent. Probably for a while. Probably from a lot of us.

But I predict from the very beginning of whatever business model IA has for us to access parts and service procedures and diagrams and specifications for our vehicles ... there will be owner activists who feel strongly about making permanent copies for themselves and others and then opting out of a rent scheme. This may or may not be legal. Or moral. People will make their choices

Those with sophistication might crack digital schemes to make their own forever copies. For offline and personal use. Simple folk may just take a ton of screenshots and save them for themselves and others. Passionate owners with time on their hands may compile screenshots of copyrighted information and tables and drawings and compile them into a convenient free PDF for offline use. IMO these are reasonable predictions, based on history.

For legal and diplomatic reasons, I'm sure this forum can't be a place to share copyrighted information without permission. But it will be somewhere. And it may be illegal and immoral. Or maybe illegal but moral.

As long as it's not fattening as well as illegal and/or immoral

Jeremillan · Sep 21, 2024

I totally agree with you! Workshop manuals are such valuable resources. I recently car repair manual download from downloadworkshopmanuals.com for my car, and the level of detail is incredible. It’s not just basic fixes like in Haynes manuals, but really in-depth information, almost like what the manufacturers have in their archives. Having this kind of information readily available empowers car owners to truly understand their vehicles. I’m all for making this info more accessible, as it gives us the tools to maintain and repair with confidence.

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Workshop manual and the point of the state of the construction of a real, full automotive industry

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