Americas TFL Offroad Review of the Grenadier

Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account) · Feb 26, 2024

Good review of the Grenadier by TFL Offroad.

View: https://youtu.be/IzEmPNytM0s

Lord Ripon USA · Feb 26, 2024

There were some interesting bits in there.
things I walked away with:
They got to jump the line. Host stumbles around that.
They ain't keeping it. Gotta make room for fresh vehicles to review.
The steering lash is unbelievable. If there is anything to work on right now, right away, it's the steering lash. The rest of the driveline works seemingly fine for US applications.
The Dad wants one set of features, and the rich kid wants different ones.
That video segues into a chat with another Youtuber (The guy with the shoe polish black hair), and they were almost talking about using the Grenadier to tow a trailer. Shoe polish hair guy said he drives his around the farm, and his mom pulls a feed wagon with a Jeep model.
Getting closer to seeing one pulling a camper up a hill.

I have seen enough of these videos now that they really are zeroing in on specific things that need improving.
That's very helpful. The list keeps getting shorter.

Beowulf · Feb 26, 2024

I don’t know what he has been driving, but the steering is fine. It doesn’t recenter like a Porsche, but it’s perfect for a ladder on frame solid axle utility vehicle.

Everyone wants a race car that can do the rubicon, but it does work that way.

Lord Ripon USA · Feb 26, 2024

Beowulf said:
I don’t know what he has been driving, but the steering is fine. It doesn’t recenter like a Porsche, but it’s perfect for a ladder on frame solid axle utility vehicle.

Everyone wants a race car that can do the rubicon, but it does work that way.

Not necessarily true.
Did you see the lash in the video?
They can do better than that.
Lots of development went into the Saginaw steering boxes to tighten things up.

When he was purposely swinging it back and forth it reminded me of my 64 Int’l pickup.

Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account) · Feb 26, 2024

I think they hit on all of the points, positive and negative, that we have been discussing here on the forum,

Beowulf · Feb 26, 2024

I’m shocked by many of the inaccurate data. He said it was 10” wider than a 4Runner. The dual battery was one in the can and one in the engine. Plus, just a general sense of barely knowing anything more than the marketing material.

Bruce · Feb 27, 2024

Lord Ripon USA said:
Not necessarily true.
Did you see the lash in the video?
They can do better than that.
Lots of development went into the Saginaw steering boxes to tighten things up.

When he was purposely swinging it back and forth it reminded me of my 64 Int’l pickup.

When you say lash are you talking about lack of self centering or the wheel kicking back at you off-road? If it's self centering I have had no concerns that the vehicle was not in control at any point since taking it home. As for fighting the wheel, the Grenadier's steering was specifically designed to not have kick back, and the TFL guys agree that it does that well.

Bruce · Feb 27, 2024

Beowulf said:
I’m shocked by many of the inaccurate data. He said it was 10” wider than a 4Runner. The dual battery was one in the can and one in the engine. Plus, just a general sense of barely knowing anything more than the marketing material.

Yeah I traded in a 4runner. No way the Ineos is wider.

ADVAW8S · Feb 27, 2024

Like many youtubers, they shoot from the hip. Make up stuff and hope no one is paying attention. They tend to keep vehicles for a year or less but when clicks drop than it ls time to move on.

What I expect in the 5 video series.
* off roading in moab and they brought their new defender and probably the new tacoma and jeep wranglerq
*off roading on their ranch. Here they can have a control test.
*towing- here they do a max weight towing up a mile climb.
*fuel efficiency test which is a 75 mile flat loop
*some sort drag race test versus wrangler and new defender.

NQ94 · Feb 27, 2024

ADVAW8S said:
Like many youtubers, they shoot from the hip. Make up stuff and hope no one is paying attention. They tend to keep vehicles for a year or less but when clicks drop than it ls time to move on.

What I expect in the 5 video series.
* off roading in moab and they brought their new defender and probably the new tacoma and jeep wranglerq
*off roading on their ranch. Here they can have a control test.
*towing- here they do a max weight towing up a mile climb.
*fuel efficiency test which is a 75 mile flat loop
*some sort drag race test versus wrangler and new defender.

The Ike Gauntlet would also be a good inclusion.

MrMike · Feb 27, 2024

Lord Ripon USA said:
Not necessarily true.
Did you see the lash in the video?
They can do better than that.
Lots of development went into the Saginaw steering boxes to tighten things up.

When he was purposely swinging it back and forth it reminded me of my 64 Int’l pickup.

A change of the steering damper does make the wheel center better, OME have one that fits

Stu_Barnes · Feb 27, 2024

Steering lash in the USA

“Steering wheel lash (definition)
Federal Law
The condition in which the steering wheel may be turned through some part of a revolution without associated movement of the front wheels. “

So are they talking about this or the lack of self centering? Maybe I’ll ask.

MrMike · Feb 27, 2024

Stu_Barnes said:
Steering lash in the USA

“Steering wheel lash (definition)
Federal Law
The condition in which the steering wheel may be turned through some part of a revolution without associated movement of the front wheels. “

So are they talking about this or the lack of self centering? Maybe I’ll ask.

I think you are correct

Tazzieman · Feb 27, 2024

The steering is fine.
The vehicle drives superbly on and offroad. Its design bias is offroad.
Buying one to look fashionable in the city will lead to tears.

MrMike · Feb 27, 2024

Tazzieman said:
The steering is fine.
The vehicle drives superbly on and offroad. Its design bias is offroad.
Buying one to look fashionable in the city will lead to tears.

I've always said there will be some who will struggle with it mentally because it's unique and they want it just for that (and not use it for its intended purpose) and find it chore to use in the city as a daily driver.

Lord Ripon USA · Feb 27, 2024

Bruce said:
When you say lash are you talking about lack of self centering or the wheel kicking back at you off-road? If it's self centering I have had no concerns that the vehicle was not in control at any point since taking it home. As for fighting the wheel, the Grenadier's steering was specifically designed to not have kick back, and the TFL guys agree that it does that well.

View attachment 7845757

Lash is the tolerance that gets taken up when turning the steering wheel before anything happens at the tire.
When I worked on steering components we aimed for a certain number of degrees lash. Too much, and that floatey luxo barge feeling becomes vague and unsettling.
It’s the sum of about a half dozen parts, their flexions and their clearances.
He was whipping the wheel back and forth far beyond anything I’ve ever seen.
I know he did it on purpose to show the camera what people are talking about. And since he doesn’t really know anything about cars he didn’t offer much explanation.
The return to center effort is something else.

I didn't realize I didn't post this up last night.

I wanted to edit it to add,:
I worked in columns and controls at General Motors from 82-87. About the time when tilt wheel became tilt column, and Steering boxes migrated to steering racks in all but heavy trucks. Electric power steering was just being invented. We were still heavily working on hydraulic pump based systems but could see the future would be electric.

One problem we faced every day, was longevity and safety. The systems had to make the mileage.
Steadily increasing lash was a thing over time, and one of great concern. Because parts wear.
I still remember asking about the issue in a meeting in 1985, and the chief engineer poopoo'ed my question quite harshly.
The answer then, and apparently still, was/is, "We cannot be responsible for whatever maintenance a customer does or doesn't do after our warranty obligations are complete."
In those days, (before strut configurations took over completely) "Front end shops" were common. Not so today.

nuclearbeef · Feb 27, 2024

Beowulf said:
I don’t know what he has been driving, but the steering is fine. It doesn’t recenter like a Porsche, but it’s perfect for a ladder on frame solid axle utility vehicle.

Everyone wants a race car that can do the rubicon, but it does work that way.

Yes, the steering is fine...
Acceptable...
But, that's about it.

The steering on my 1985 70 series Land Cruiser is better.
Another solid axle, ladder-frame truck in its first year of production. Only with leaf springs at all 4 corners.

~~Nobody~~ Very few people expect it to handle like a Porsche, and while it's miles ahead of the old Defender's 1950s (40s?) tech; it fails to exhibit much advancement over the best the 80s had to offer the 4x4 world.

BenTN · Feb 27, 2024

A few thoughts about the Grenadier steering:

1) This is a technical issue, it will help if we are precise with language. "Steering Wheel Lash" seems to be the relevant topic. Self-Centering, steering feedback, and steering effort might be related but they are different things. "On-Center Feel" is a driver perception that is heavily influenced by Lash.

2) An owner's perception is going to be influenced by two important factors:
a) Their specific Grenadier. I have been driving a newish Jeep Wrangler for the last few years and in that community it has become evident that there exists a spectrum of steering performance. Probably due to typical manufacturing variations (tolerance stack-ups) and how they manifest themselves based on the actual component geometry. In the Jeep community the conversation centers around death-wobble. It varies between vehicles and even year-by-year. Small variations are normal in manufacturing. Pretending that all cars should be identical and perfect is in conflict with reality. If you are pleased with the steering in your car then that is wonderful, but don't assume that it is identical to every other car.
b) Their recent comparison point. Stepping out of a BMW you are going to be disappointed in just about any actual truck. Again, I am stepping out of a Jeep JLU (very similar axle and steering components/geometry). If I'm honest I would say that my Jeep is a better highway experience in terms of tracking. The effort and attention required by the Ineos is not helping me cover ground safely and efficiently.

3) Reasonable use cases differ between Grenadier owners. In some locations, there is no Interstate (highway) use case. In the U.S. you are often driving long distances to get to the fun spots. It's easy to say "So what, get over it, that's not why you bought a 4WD." The reality is that this is an expedition travel vehicle for many. This involves long hours in the seat (my summer trips tend to range around 6000mi or so) and fatigue becomes a factor for both safety and enjoyment. I am not thrilled with the Ineos in this regard. I wish it was an improvement over the JLU (which is ~60% the price) but in my side-by-side comparison it is not.

Am I sad? Do I hate the car? Hell no, I absolutely love it.

It's OK to acknowledge that a compromise (on-road performance vs off-road for example) is not ideal for your use case. It's also OK to acknowledge that the car isn't perfect. That's how it will improve, be it in aftermarket options or subsequent generations.

nuclearbeef · Feb 27, 2024

BenTN said:
A few thoughts about the Grenadier steering:

1) This is a technical issue, it will help if we are precise with language. "Steering Wheel Lash" seems to be the relevant topic. Self-Centering, steering feedback, and steering effort might be related but they are different things. "On-Center Feel" is a driver perception that is heavily influenced by Lash.

2) An owner's perception is going to be influenced by two important factors:
a) Their specific Grenadier. I have been driving a newish Jeep Wrangler for the last few years and in that community it has become evident that there exists a spectrum of steering performance. Probably due to typical manufacturing variations (tolerance stack-ups) and how they manifest themselves based on the actual component geometry. In the Jeep community the conversation centers around death-wobble. It varies between vehicles and even year-by-year. Small variations are normal in manufacturing. Pretending that all cars should be identical and perfect is in conflict with reality. If you are pleased with the steering in your car then that is wonderful, but don't assume that it is identical to every other car.
b) Their recent comparison point. Stepping out of a BMW you are going to be disappointed in just about any actual truck. Again, I am stepping out of a Jeep JLU (very similar axle and steering components/geometry). If I'm honest I would say that my Jeep is a better highway experience in terms of tracking. The effort and attention required by the Ineos is not helping me cover ground safely and efficiently.

3) Reasonable use cases differ between Grenadier owners. In some locations, there is no Interstate (highway) use case. In the U.S. you are often driving long distances to get to the fun spots. It's easy to say "So what, get over it, that's not why you bought a 4WD." The reality is that this is an expedition travel vehicle for many. This involves long hours in the seat (my summer trips tend to range around 6000mi or so) and fatigue becomes a factor for both safety and enjoyment. I am not thrilled with the Ineos in this regard. I wish it was an improvement over the JLU (which is ~60% the price) but in my side-by-side comparison it is not.

Am I sad? Do I hate the car? Hell no, I absolutely love it.

It's OK to acknowledge that a compromise (on-road performance vs off-road for example) is not ideal for your use case. It's also OK to acknowledge that the car isn't perfect. That's how it will improve, be it in aftermarket options or subsequent generations.

I don't feel there is excessive lash (at least in my particular Gren). Almost no lash at all.
I could throw the steering wheel back and forth quickly and see no change in direction (like the video), but were I to move the wheel only a very few degrees, then wait for half a second; it would change direction.
There is quite a bit of rubber between the axle and road. I expect it to be a little squidgey.

My main complaints about the steering are
1) turning radius
2) too many turns lock to lock
distant third) lack of self centering
way distant 4th) the horrible tendency of the front wheels to "take a set" for the first 1000 miles. This would be my number 1 complaint had it not fixed itself gradually.

255/85 · Feb 27, 2024

The video was banal at best. Wasted almost an hour and a half watching it. If you already own a Grenadier then don't bother.

MrMike said:
A change of the steering damper does make the wheel center better, OME have one that fits

I'm not understanding how that can be. I've had OME dampers and they're little more than a shock absorber. Good product but there aren't any springs or self-centering gas chambers in them afaik. They're designed to provide even shock resistance regardless where the wheel is pointed. Is the Grenadier specific model something different?

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Americas TFL Offroad Review of the Grenadier

Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)

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Lord Ripon USA

Beowulf

Lord Ripon USA

Deleted member 9047666 (user closed account)

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Beowulf

Bruce

Global Grenadier #51

Bruce

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ADVAW8S

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NQ94

MrMike

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Lord Ripon USA

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255/85

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