Ineos Grenadier - rejected

AWo · Feb 23, 2024

Roach said:
I think the NET profit margin was higher...maybe close to 20% (I could be recalling a different year) . If so, that Is about $1B+-.

Grenadier Revenue if they make 40k cars in a FY @ 90k each and if they had the same net profit margin as Ferarri (I would think Ineos margin is higher) that leaves them $720m. Should be plenty to help early adopters out with any issues they have

The car companies with the highest margin worldwide are:

Ferrari 24%
Tesla 16,8% (before latest price reductions)
Mercedes Benz 12,3%
BMW 9,8%

It is difficult to say, regarding the formerly targeted price of 54k to 59k Euros, if there was a bad misscalculation (which I would expecrt in this chaotic organization) and they had to increase the price (to be fair, logistics and parts all saw a partly dramatical price increase) or all is added to the margin or both.

AWo

Zimm · Feb 23, 2024

BillLumberg said:
I get where you are coming from and I had some of the same misgivings. After doing all of my research, I got comfortable with the vehicle because of the parts they were using: BMW B58 engine, Brembo Brakes, ZF Transmission, Carraro Axels, etc. The components are all well known and a many mechanics can work on them. Also, with Jim Ratcliffe putting up $1,500,000,000 of his own money, I don't think he would leave one of the largest markets for his product.

But if Grenadier doesn't make it in the US (and I do expect them to succeed), I have one of the few to be here. Time to park it for 20 years and sell it for Millions!

I really hope no one is actually thinking these will have collector value in 20 years. Those days are coming to an end. Buy this because you want it for what it is, and be prepared to take the hit later.

MidnightCamper · Feb 23, 2024

shawtrav said:
My dealer is Endeavour Automotive Beaconsfield. 'Endeavour' as in 'attempt' to fix the heater.
Their first attempt to fix the heater was to bleed the coolant system, as Ineos Technical didn't tell them to vacuum bleed the system. Then they couldn't get the vacuum bleed kit to work. Then they got hold of a second vacuum bleed kit, and that didn't work as the fault reappeared within 100 driven miles.

Ineos are stalling on the value of my refund. If you get into this discussion, you may need to point out to Ineos the difference between Right to Reject and Right to Cancel (The Consumer Rights Act 2015 vs. Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013), as they do not appear to know the difference. A discussion with my learned friends looks increasingly likely.

Yikes. That is terrible. And the unfortunate dealer name...what a blow to Morse fans.

DaBull · Feb 23, 2024

Zimm said:
I really hope no one is actually thinking these will have collector value in 20 years. Those days are coming to an end. Buy this because you want it for what it is, and be prepared to take the hit later.

Hi Zimm, with them trying to push all electric, any old school combustion engine in a classic vehicle will be highly desirable in my humble opinion. I agree with you that is not the reason to buy it, however I know for a fact my Grenadier will have a lot more collector value in 20 years than I will.
DaBull

Zimm · Feb 23, 2024

DaBull said:
Hi Zimm, with them trying to push all electric, any old school combustion engine in a classic vehicle will be highly desirable in my humble opinion. I agree with you that is not the reason to buy it, however I know for a fact my Grenadier will have a lot more collector value in 20 years than I will.
DaBull

Gasoline is cheap because of the distribution network. When more cars are charging at home, the costs of maintaining gas distribution is going to skyrocket. It'll be slow at first, but at some point, it'll be a death spiral and "collector" car will turn into a novelty not many will want to deal with. Then you'll have OEM suppliers that wont be getting ice contracts anymore, etc etc etc. If you think supply chain collapse is far fetched, keep in mind, after the market crash in 08 if we hadn't bailed out GM, both ford and Chrysler would have bit the dust as too many OEM suppliers would have died without the GM business.

ICE isn't dying as fast ICE haters want, but, it will die, if only because the yout's aren't nearly as car interested as we were. Don't buy classic cars as retirement investments.

DaBull · Feb 23, 2024

Zimm said:
Gasoline is cheap because of the distribution network. When more cars are charging at home, the costs of maintaining gas distribution is going to skyrocket. It'll be slow at first, but at some point, it'll be a death spiral and "collector" car will turn into a novelty not many will want to deal with. Then you'll have OEM suppliers that wont be getting ice contracts anymore, etc etc etc. If you think supply chain collapse is far fetched, keep in mind, after the market crash in 08 if we hadn't bailed out GM, both ford and Chrysler would have bit the dust as too many OEM suppliers would have died without the GM business.

ICE isn't dying as fast ICE haters want, but, it will die, if only because the yout's aren't nearly as car interested as we were. Don't buy classic cars as retirement investments.

I always thought the most beautiful vehicle in the world was a Dino, Enzo was unsure how it would be accepted, so at first he did not even put his Ferrari badge on it. I had an opportunity to buy one for $35,000 around 1996 and did not pull the trigger. I know I have good taste and an eye for design. It had a V-6 engine inspired by Enzo's son, Dino. Not many were made because all the Ferrari purists shunned it for not having a V-8 or V-12. Dealers in the US would buy Ferrari badges and stick them on the Dino.
Long story short, which is rare for me, try $450,000+ for one now. Still the most beautiful car in the world.
Wished that was part of my retirement account, even if just for the joy of driving it, as the drive is worth more than the price. I took this picture at the dunes on PCH near Mugu rock. DaBull

Zimm · Feb 24, 2024

110nas's and grens arent dino's. they are transportation. in 2045 I'll fill your tank if this is more than scrap metal. good luck with the investment!

NQ94 · Feb 24, 2024

Zimm said:
110nas's and grens arent dino's. they are transportation. in 2045 I'll fill your tank if this is more than scrap metal. good luck with the investment!

2045's most popular camping activities for the classic ice Grenadier and 4x4 travel enthusiast.

lightning · Feb 24, 2024

DaBull said:
I always thought the most beautiful vehicle in the world was a Dino, Enzo was unsure how it would be accepted, so at first he did not even put his Ferrari badge on it. I had an opportunity to buy one for $35,000 around 1996 and did not pull the trigger. I know I have good taste and an eye for design. It had a V-6 engine inspired by Enzo's son, Dino. Not many were made because all the Ferrari purists shunned it for not having a V-8 or V-12. Dealers in the US would buy Ferrari badges and stick them on the Dino.
Long story short, which is rare for me, try $450,000+ for one now. Still the most beautiful car in the world.
Wished that was part of my retirement account, even if just for the joy of driving it, as the drive is worth more than the price. I took this picture at the dunes on PCH near Mugu rock. DaBullView attachment 7845359

l sold my Mondial T for £18,000 back in 2010. At the time that was a good price. l Now it's worth closer to £50,000. l guess that's just the way with old vehicles

bikesandguitars · Feb 24, 2024

Zimm said:
I really hope no one is actually thinking these will have collector value in 20 years. Those days are coming to an end. Buy this because you want it for what it is, and be prepared to take the hit later.

How are those days coming to an end?

DaBull · Feb 24, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
How are those days coming to an end?

Not coming to an end. Because of capitalism, the standard of living doubles every 28.8 years with just a 2.5% GDP growth, moving more and more folks up the ladder including those who covet and collect automobiles. That will only continue to drive prices higher and higher for vehicles that stand the test of time and design. Most vehicle's don't fall into this category, however the amount of them that do continues to expand. It's like art, you buy it because you like it, if it goes up bonus. DaBull

MidnightCamper · Feb 24, 2024

Zimm said:
Gasoline is cheap because of the distribution network. When more cars are charging at home, the costs of maintaining gas distribution is going to skyrocket. It'll be slow at first, but at some point, it'll be a death spiral and "collector" car will turn into a novelty not many will want to deal with. Then you'll have OEM suppliers that wont be getting ice contracts anymore, etc etc etc. If you think supply chain collapse is far fetched, keep in mind, after the market crash in 08 if we hadn't bailed out GM, both ford and Chrysler would have bit the dust as too many OEM suppliers would have died without the GM business.

ICE isn't dying as fast ICE haters want, but, it will die, if only because the yout's aren't nearly as car interested as we were. Don't buy classic cars as retirement investments.

Forced to agree but it will be gradual and parallel. Think rail services, livery stables, pay phone booths. copper land lines.

lightning · Feb 25, 2024

Modern vehicles including the Grenadier are so complex that once they get to the stage where the electronics are failing, they either won't be repairable or won't be economical to repair.

The Grenadier stands more of a chance than the new Defender, but it's still got over 40 microprocessors and an electronically managed BMW engine full of sensors.

My friend recently bought a 20 year old Range Rover. lt was a lovely vehicle in amazing condition but a constant litany of faults and failures cost her thousands of pounds in the first few months. She eventually sold it and it went for £4,000. The new owner had a gearbox failure a month later and the vehicle ended up being sold on for spares.

With the old Defender for instance, theres no issues getting replacements for the transmission or engine, and they can be rebuilt fairly cheaply.
The only real electronics in a Defender TD5 is the ECU and that's beginning to cause issues with the youngest being 18 years old.
Fortunately the ECU is repairable but l wouldn't bet on the same being possible with my new Defender. Even the dealers often can't fix software and electronic faults on brand new ones.

Zimm · Feb 25, 2024

bikesandguitars said:
How are those days coming to an end?

Fringe marks that are well beyond your third standard deviation in production % exist because of the cars that are used mainstream. They NEED the mass production oem suppliers that the big boys support, as evidenced by how many design compromises the gren has to accommodate key "expensive to design" systems as "off the shelf" as possible. As the mainstream shifts past ICE, fuel distribution networks shrink and OEM suppliers dry up.

1/2 the fuel stations doesn't mean your 4 dollar gas is inconvenient to find. It doesn't mean it's now 8 dollars gallon. To maintain profit margins on a logistically stretched commodity network, It'll be an inverse square'ish price hike. As far as finding parts 25+ years from now, there are a ton of high quality autos in the system that will be scrapped, and they will be available, but that doesn't make this car valuable, it makes it a jalopy.

Elon may be insane, and the chinese have caught him so he won't be the one ruling the world, but, he did see the end game and act boldly.

I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt it. My long term investments are aren't in an industry transitioning out, its in real estate. We are making more people, we aren't making more land. Put your money into there, or war, not into cars.

AngusMacG · Feb 25, 2024

Zimm said:
Fringe marks that are well beyond your third standard deviation in production % exist because of the cars that are used mainstream. They NEED the mass production oem suppliers that the big boys support, as evidenced by how many design compromises the gren has to accommodate key "expensive to design" systems as "off the shelf" as possible. As the mainstream shifts past ICE, fuel distribution networks shrink and OEM suppliers dry up.

1/2 the fuel stations doesn't mean your 4 dollar gas is inconvenient to find. It doesn't mean it's now 8 dollars gallon. To maintain profit margins on a logistically stretched commodity network, It'll be an inverse square'ish price hike. As far as finding parts 25+ years from now, there are a ton of high quality autos in the system that will be scrapped, and they will be available, but that doesn't make this car valuable, it makes it a jalopy.

Elon may be insane, and the chinese have caught him so he won't be the one ruling the world, but, he did see the end game and act boldly.

I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt it. My long term investments are aren't in an industry transitioning out, its in real estate. We are making more people, we aren't making more land. Put your money into there, or war, not into cars.

I don't think anyone here is claiming to "invest"in the Grenadier like you would with stocks or real estate...I believe the hope is to have a vehicle that lasts up to and hopefully beyond 10 years. Obviously things will need to be fixed etc. along the way but that the vehicle itself and the major components will last.

My last car I bought was a used 2011 Infiniti M37x w/60k miles on it back in 2016. That car would've lasted several more years had I not ripped the plastic panel under the engine compartment off about 4 years ago. Even still I never had any major work done on it until this past year and ultimately scrapped it with 190k miles.

Shifting beyond "ICE" is a fad not a trend. More and more people are realizing the inadequacies of EVs in the current market. For example. I am driving to Quebec City tomorrow. It is a 7ish hour drive (roughly 420 miles) including stopping to refuel and grab a snack. IN my Infiniti I would only have to fill up once on the way up and once on the way back. IN an EV (assume a Tesla Model 3) I would have to stop 3 times each trip just to charge the vehicle. Assuming I charge up to 90% it could take upwards of an additional 2+ hours added onto the drive rather than a half hour in an ICE vehicle. This would be the same on the return trip. My time is more valuable than waiting to charge an EV.

I do find that at least with the introduction of the Grenadier the Ineos team had a singular vision and stuck to it. Some of the add-ons and issues we have are due to government regulations that may have led to compromise on some aspects of the vehicle (i.e. safety over utility, or comfort over convenience, etc.).

DrahthHunter · Feb 25, 2024

Zimm said:
Gasoline is cheap because of the distribution network. When more cars are charging at home, the costs of maintaining gas distribution is going to skyrocket. It'll be slow at first, but at some point, it'll be a death spiral and "collector" car will turn into a novelty not many will want to deal with. Then you'll have OEM suppliers that wont be getting ice contracts anymore, etc etc etc. If you think supply chain collapse is far fetched, keep in mind, after the market crash in 08 if we hadn't bailed out GM, both ford and Chrysler would have bit the dust as too many OEM suppliers would have died without the GM business.

ICE isn't dying as fast ICE haters want, but, it will die, if only because the yout's aren't nearly as car interested as we were. Don't buy classic cars as retirement investments.

WHAT IN THE HELL IS ICE

Karearea · Feb 25, 2024

DrahthHunter said:
WHAT IN THE HELL IS ICE

Internal Combustion Engine

DrahthHunter · Feb 25, 2024

Karearea said:
Internal Combustion Engine

Thank you! people and stupid ass acronyms. Makes sense now but the Internal Combustion Engine is not going anywhere in the states.

Lord Ripon USA · Feb 25, 2024

There is YOUR useful life span, and then there is the VEHICLE'S useful lifespan.
If the stars align, I have 10 years bopping around the desert and forested lands left in me. That'll be it.
The chassis is modern. The body is modern. It will go 10+ even seaside.

As TFL pointed out today, these aren't being sold to kids. And the younger crowd buys used, high mileage, and starts working on things.

The outrageously wallowy steering in that video scared me, and I have numerous solid axle vehicles.

lightning · Feb 25, 2024

A lot of Grenadiers are being bought by enthusiasts, the kind of people who will cherish the vehicle and keep it long term.

Unlike (say) the new Defender that is in many cases being bought by consumers with no interest in cars, who will trade it for whatever the latest fashionable vehicle might be, when the PCP agreement ends.

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Ineos Grenadier - rejected

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