Removing the underseat trim panels / accessing or removing the batteries

MrMike · Aug 4, 2023

DCPU said:
So further to this post:
Post in thread 'Removing the underseat trim panels / accessing or removing the batteries' https://www.theineosforum.com/threa...moving-the-batteries.12412649/post-1333202065

I've now received answers back from CTEK Technical Support:

Q1. - Why would the temperature sensor appear to be shrink wrapped onto a ring connector and attached to the negative terminal of the service battery?
Q1 Answer: Strange attachment of the temp sensor. Usually, the hot spot area is on the top of the battery around + terminal.

Q2. - Why would the smart alternator cable not be attached (the vehicle does have a smart alternator)?
Q2 Answer: Connect the smart alternator cable to ignition on signal (KL15+) if you have a smart alternator. If you don´t know if your vehicle is equipped with a smart alternator? Connect it anyway.

Q3. Why is the LED between the service battery and output consumers permanently lit when nothing is connected to the Smartpass output terminal? Doesn't this indicate that the service battery is providing current to some consumers?
Q3. Answer:
View attachment 7822179

[I've queried this as the light is not flashing and exclamation mark LED is not lit]

Q4. - Would there be any benefit to this system in fitting a D250SE but not attaching any solar power input?
Q4. Answer: Yes a D250SE will top charge your service battery. The reason of
above led indication can be missing D250SE or/and not activated smart alternator function?
[I don't understand the second sentence]

Q5. - Are there any wiring diagrams or schematics to show what's inside the Smartpass?
Q5. Answer Unfortunately, no diagrams. available, but a Smartpass 120S is a smart combination of relays (actually MOSFETS) that connects starter and service batteries. This enables current from your alternator to charge both batteries. The SMARTPASS 120S will not control the voltage applied to the service battery. For that you need a D250SE installed in parallel. The current through the SMARTPASS 120S to a service battery depends on the alternator output voltage, cable length/ dimension and the charge acceptance of your battery. The max continuous current is 120A. Start assistance. SMARTPASS 120S automatically connects the service and starter battery, if the starter battery on its own is unable to start the engine. After the start assistance function has been activated, SMARTPASS 120S will display a fault indication that remains until starting has been achieved without the use of the start assistance function.

Q 5. -This is the reason why IA said not to install a lithium aux battery with the Smartpass

DenisM · Aug 4, 2023

KDJDGrenadier said:
DenisM you wouldn't happen to know which fuse in the Grenadier to use the jumper fuse on?

Haven't got that far yet!

However I did a return trip from Brisbane to Toowoomba yesterday. (270km return) I can report absolutely no error messages, (let the system do its self test thing prior to starting), it hauled its sizeable mass up the main range like freight train!

MarkH · Aug 4, 2023

Overland Journeyman said:
Ive had my D250se arrive in the mail today and i see there is a smart alternator red cable on this too. Do we need to attach 1/ both this one and the smartpass120s red cable to the alternator or 2/ one of them or 3/none of them? And reading above... can we do this to a fuse??
I note that the current cable on the 120s isnt attached at all, and the temp sensor is to the negative terminal not beside the positive one.

Wait until DCPU gets a reply from Ineos on the Smartpass cable. Temp sensor should be near the positive terminal. You often see them just placed anywhere on top of the battery.

Logsplitter · Aug 4, 2023

MarkH said:
Wait until DCPU gets a reply from Ineos on the Smartpass cable. Temp sensor should be near the positive terminal. You often see them just placed anywhere on top of the battery.

I questioned Ineos and and later Ctek ref the ignition smart pass cable when I first received my vehicle and they said it was wired correctly

MarkH · Aug 4, 2023

Logsplitter said:
I questioned Ineos and and later Ctek ref the ignition smart pass cable when I first received my vehicle and they said it was wired correctly

Ctek need to explain why it is to be left off in this instance, as their manual says to connect it.
And below is Ctek's reply to DCPU's query. So who at Ctek is right.

DCPU: Why would the smart alternator cable not be attached (the vehicle does have a smart alternator)?
Ctek: Connect the smart alternator cable to ignition on signal (KL15+) if you have a smart alternator. If you don´t know if your vehicle is equipped with a smart alternator? Connect it anyway.

DCPU · Aug 16, 2023

DCPU said:
I'll be asking Ineos Customer Services to comment on the first two questions /answers.

I emailed them on Friday 4th August:

DCPU · Aug 16, 2023

In reply, so far I have:

Friday 4th August - case reference 112300 raised.
Tuesday 8th August - Technical Department refer questions to Hambach factory.

DenisM · Aug 17, 2023

I have a Projecta IDC25L fitted to my battery box. The Projecta directions are to secure the temp. sensor as outlined above to an auxiliary/service battery, and to use "thermal" paste to ensure proper contact

joejet · Oct 14, 2023

I am planning to leave the grenadier unused for a few months and have been testing the Optimate Solar Duo 20w on my Defender, I might buy an extra panel and plug it ito the Grenadier while I'm away They fit perfectly in the front window using the sunvisors to hold the panels in.
where is the best place to wire in the ring terminal connector (rather than the crocodile clips) direct to the battery to the big fuse/ distribution power box? (below)

The wire will be left in the car but panels can be easily removed.

DenisM · Oct 15, 2023

Last time I had leave a vehicle for several months, I put the vehicle on blocks so that the wheels were not in contact with the ground (i.e. no flat spots on tyres), I disconnected the battery and poured fuel saver in the tank to reduce the possibility of algae growth...
I then lowered the windows slightly and placed foam in the gap so as to stop insects but get some air change.
When I eventually restarted it, I turned the engine over without ignition to circulate the oil then fired it up properly..

Jean Mercier · Nov 6, 2023

I wanted to remove the rear underseat trim panel because I am mounting an ARB compressor behind the auxiliary battery.

As mentioned in the beginning of this thread by @DCPU, the underseat rear trim panel can only be removed decently by unscrewing the rear seat and lift it up.

And, @DCPU mentioned that the rear bolts of the rear seat are extremely difficult to remove: I tried by hand and gave up.

I agree also with @tristand who mentioned in another post that “the whole under seat enclosure is a crap design which would get any of my engineers fired” (https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/dual-battery-setup-modifications.12413300/)

Therefore, I did what I did to the other side of the trim panel: I did cut it in two pieces, not a nice straight cut (difficulty of access), but nobody will notice when the seats are down.

To be able to mount them back with one part supporting the other, I did find in my “garbage” a black plastic strip, and did, by heating up a metal piece, bend it by trial and error so that I could glue it to one of my “half” trim panel.

Trim cut

Result:

Once mounted back I will be able to remove easily both half panels if necessary
I am able to access more easily the fuse connecting the main battery and auxiliary battery

(No picture of the end result, because I will first install my compressor)

bakepl · Nov 6, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
And, @DCPU mentioned that the rear bolts of the rear seat are extremely difficult to remove: I tried by hand and gave up.

Yes what a real pain and agree that whoever designed this needs to be... as well as whoever approved the design. For those who come after here's my tool 'solution' for the rear bolts - still fiddly... I'm sure there's something better but had these on hand.

YIPPE · Nov 6, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
I wanted to remove the rear underseat trim panel because I am mounting an ARB compressor behind the auxiliary battery.

As mentioned in the beginning of this thread by @DCPU, the underseat rear trim panel can only be removed decently by unscrewing the rear seat and lift it up.

And, @DCPU mentioned that the rear bolts of the rear seat are extremely difficult to remove: I tried by hand and gave up.

I agree also with @tristand who mentioned in another post that “the whole under seat enclosure is a crap design which would get any of my engineers fired” (https://www.theineosforum.com/threads/dual-battery-setup-modifications.12413300/)

Therefore, I did what I did to the other side of the trim panel: I did cut it in two pieces, not a nice straight cut (difficulty of access), but nobody will notice when the seats are down.

View attachment 7831935
View attachment 7831936

To be able to mount them back with one part supporting the other, I did find in my “garbage” a black plastic strip, and did, by heating up a metal piece, bend it by trial and error so that I could glue it to one of my “half” trim panel.

View attachment 7831937

View attachment 7831940Trim cut

Result:

Once mounted back I will be able to remove easily both half panels if necessary

I am able to access more easily the fuse connecting the main battery and auxiliary battery

(No picture of the end result, because I will first install my compressor)
View attachment 7831946

I'm assuming this is the same case for the starter battery?
I don't have dual battery, and the enclosure on right hand side was easy to remove. However the starter battery has a panel over most of the battery and the terminals.

Znarfgh · Nov 29, 2023

MrMike said:
Q 5. -This is the reason why IA said not to install a lithium aux battery with the Smartpass

You can't connect two batteries with different chemistries.

The EFB main battery has a fully charged voltage of 12.7 Volts. Lithium batteries have a fully charged voltage of 13.4 Volts and completely different discharge characteristics.

Znarfgh · Nov 29, 2023

DCPU said:
I emailed them on Friday 4th August:
View attachment 7823607 View attachment 7823605 View attachment 7823603 View attachment 7823606

The smart alternator cable does not need to be attached as the Smartpass 120 is not a charger and does not rely on sensing voltage from the alternator to do its job. Once the main battery has enough voltage the Smartpass will allow the alternator to charge the second battery.

Now in the case of a D250SE the red cable needs to be connected as it will not charge anything if it does not detect any current from the alternator. Once your main battery is fully charged the alternator reduces output to a level where the D250SE sensing no incoming voltage and won't charge the second battery. The ignition wire tricks the D250SE into working even when the alternator has stopped proving the main battery with current.

MrMike · Nov 29, 2023

Znarfgh said:
You can't connect two batteries with different chemistries.

The EFB main battery has a fully charged voltage of 12.7 Volts. Lithium batteries have a fully charged voltage of 13.4 Volts and completely different discharge characteristics.

You can connect them with a DCDC charger but not with the Smartpass. Apart from the obvious voltage differences, the Smartpass only connects Aux battery to the start battery when low voltage is detected in the start battery (another reason not to use Lithium with the Smartpass) not the other way around, why they didn't use the 250SE

Znarfgh · Nov 29, 2023

MrMike said:
You can connect them with a DCDC charger but not with the Smartpass. Apart from the obvious voltage differences, the Smartpass only connects Aux battery to the start battery when low voltage is detected in the start battery (another reason not to use Lithium with the Smartpass) not the other way around, why they didn't use the 250SE

I don't believe that you can make use of both batteries (like when you use the Smartpass) with the D250SE. I believe the D250SE does not have the ability to link the two batteries. With a true auxiliary battery setup you have to manually link the two batteries (ie. your main battery does not have enough power to start the vehicle) with a cable.

MrMike · Nov 29, 2023

Znarfgh said:
I don't believe that you can make use of both batteries (like when you use the Smartpass) with the D250SE. I believe the D250SE does not have the ability to link the two batteries. With a true auxiliary battery setup you have to manually link the two batteries (ie. your main battery does not have enough power to start the vehicle) with a cable.

You are correct re the 250 and using it to start the vehicle. My comment was more about using lithium as an auxiliary battery or using the 250 and SLA battery with a with momentary switch for starting. All in all from an AU perspective the dual battery seems to be an unusual setup.

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