Rear Bench Seat: Belstaff vs Station Wagon Models

emax · Nov 13, 2022

Lithium saves some weight. But it is still not without danger. Even the best battery controller can't prevent the chemistry from going mad - due to micro contamination in the material.

I'd prefer LiFePo4 technology. It's heavier, but it is much safer than Lithium. And I don't want my Grenadier to take on fire because I tried to save 10 Kg of weight.

Considering that the DoD is for LeFePo4 technology up to 100%, you can again safe some weight by just chosing a smaller capacity.

bigleonski · Nov 13, 2022

emax said:
Lithium saves some weight. But it is still not without danger. Even the best battery controller can't prevent the chemistry from going mad - due to micro contamination in the material.

I'd prefer LiFePo4 technology. It's heavier, but it is much safer than Lithium. And I don't want my Grenadier to take on fire because I tried to save 10 Kg of weight.

Considering that the DoD is for LeFePo4 technology up to 100%, you can again safe some weight by just chosing a smaller capacity.

For me it's about capacity and storage options and not about weight emax.
If it was about weight I'd start by losing 30kg myself.

And most of the options i'd look at like DCS and Baintech are LifePo4 in any case.

Dent · Feb 24, 2023

I asked the Bulgarian dealer about ordering the Utility version (N1) for VAT-reclaim reasons and then moving the rear seats backwards to the "Station Wagon position" with 7 cm more legroom. They enquired with Ineos and their answer was "Yes, this is technically possible, however moving the rear seats and removing the metal divider will make the 5-year warranty void." I assume it will be similar in all EU countries. And unfortunately I will have to cancel my order and wait for the pick-up version or eventually a 7-seater which allows VAT-reclaim and has sufficient legroom for rear-seat passengers.

r1978 · Feb 24, 2023

There's hardly anything but Lithium Iron Phosphate from the major brands. Lithium ion of old is mostly in devices. More esoteric chemistries are only used in limited cases:NMC and LTO

Dent · Feb 24, 2023

Dent said:
I asked the Bulgarian dealer about ordering the Utility version (N1) for VAT-reclaim reasons and then moving the rear seats backwards to the "Station Wagon position" with 7 cm more legroom. They enquired with Ineos and their answer was "Yes, this is technically possible, however moving the rear seats and removing the metal divider will make the 5-year warranty void." I assume it will be similar in all EU countries. And unfortunately I will have to cancel my order and wait for the pick-up version or eventually a 7-seater which allows VAT-reclaim and has sufficient legroom for rear-seat passengers.

And honestly I cannot see the logic behind this as I am not making any structural changes to the car. A lot of people will be put off by the choice between sacrificing legroom and paying 20% (or whatever the vat rate is in their country) more.

Jean Mercier · Feb 24, 2023

Dent said:
I asked the Bulgarian dealer about ordering the Utility version (N1) for VAT-reclaim reasons and then moving the rear seats backwards to the "Station Wagon position" with 7 cm more legroom. They enquired with Ineos and their answer was "Yes, this is technically possible, however moving the rear seats and removing the metal divider will make the 5-year warranty void." I assume it will be similar in all EU countries. And unfortunately I will have to cancel my order and wait for the pick-up version or eventually a 7-seater which allows VAT-reclaim and has sufficient legroom for rear-seat passengers.

In my opinion, but I could be wrong, I don't know the Bulgarian laws, you only loose the warranty if something goes wrong with the back seats. Not if the motor fails, or if you have a rust problem, or something else not related to the seats.

Dent · Feb 24, 2023

Jean Mercier said:
In my opinion, but I could be wrong, I don't know the Bulgarian laws, you only loose the warranty if something goes wrong with the back seats. Not if the motor fails, or if you have a rust problem, or something else not related to the seats.

Pretty strange to me, too, and it is not related to Bulgarian laws specifically - this is what they exactly said: "The manufacturer does not allow or recommend moving the second row of Utility Wagon seats to the Station Wagon position and removing the luggage compartment, as this will void the vehicle's warranty."

Eric · Feb 24, 2023

Dent said:
Pretty strange to me, too, and it is not related to Bulgarian laws specifically - this is what they exactly said: "The manufacturer does not allow or recommend moving the second row of Utility Wagon seats to the Station Wagon position and removing the luggage compartment, as this will void the vehicle's warranty."

Nothing to do with warranty issue, your are circumventing their marketing strategy and that's what they don't like.

globalgregors · Feb 24, 2023

Dent said:
I asked the Bulgarian dealer about ordering the Utility version (N1) for VAT-reclaim reasons and then moving the rear seats backwards to the "Station Wagon position" with 7 cm more legroom. They enquired with Ineos and their answer was "Yes, this is technically possible, however moving the rear seats and removing the metal divider will make the 5-year warranty void." I assume it will be similar in all EU countries. And unfortunately I will have to cancel my order and wait for the pick-up version or eventually a 7-seater which allows VAT-reclaim and has sufficient legroom for rear-seat passengers.

Not sure about consumer protections in Bulgaria, but in Australia if this was true, it would only affect warranty claims explicitly involving the rear seat, battery box etc.

DenisM · Feb 25, 2023

Dent said:
I asked the Bulgarian dealer about ordering the Utility version (N1) for VAT-reclaim reasons and then moving the rear seats backwards to the "Station Wagon position" with 7 cm more legroom. They enquired with Ineos and their answer was "Yes, this is technically possible, however moving the rear seats and removing the metal divider will make the 5-year warranty void." I assume it will be similar in all EU countries. And unfortunately I will have to cancel my order and wait for the pick-up version or eventually a 7-seater which allows VAT-reclaim and has sufficient legroom for rear-seat passengers.

I suspect Ineos can't be seen to be assisting in circumventing rules about commercial -private use. That would undermine their submissions to the Regulators about the ?"N1"classification of the utility model... besides, moving the seat might uncover the secret umbrella compartment for that market...

emax · Feb 25, 2023

Dent said:
And honestly I cannot see the logic behind this as I am not making any structural changes to the car. A lot of people will be put off by the choice between sacrificing legroom and paying 20% (or whatever the vat rate is in their country) more.

I don't think that would stand up to legal scrutiny.

Dent · Feb 25, 2023

I understand that they are cautious not to present themselves as encouraging such practices from tax authorities point of of view. But they could have just said they do not encourage such practices and cannot be held responsible for whatever changes I make to the car after delivery and registration. I have bought other N1 cars before (VW, Skoda) and the dealers were quite supportive, they just did the changes after registration and no issues with warranty whatsoever. But stating explicitly that the car warranty becomes void is a bit of an overdo. And yes, I am not a legal expert, but I am pretty sure they are not legally allowed to do so under EU regulations. But the prospective of entering a legal battle with them on warranty issues is not something that makes me happy. On the other hand, if they keep to their reliability promise, I should not worry about warranty anyway

Dent · Feb 27, 2023

Dent said:
Pretty strange to me, too, and it is not related to Bulgarian laws specifically - this is what they exactly said: "The manufacturer does not allow or recommend moving the second row of Utility Wagon seats to the Station Wagon position and removing the luggage compartment, as this will void the vehicle's warranty."

An update and clarification from local rep - makes more sense now:
“Changing the position - moving the second row of seats of the Utility Wagon to the Station Wagon position and removing the luggage compartment splitter will result in the rejection of a warranty claim regarding an event occurring as a result of the change. Any structural change leads to voiding the warranty of the parts and units directly and indirectly related to it. The warranty of the engine, gearbox, ie. everything unrelated to the change is preserved.”

jeremy_matrix · Feb 28, 2023

DaveB said:
Unlike a normal rear seat this one does have a lot of stuff under it which has to be taken into account.

View attachment 7795915 View attachment 7795916

Thanks for these pictures DCPU and DaveB.
Still frustrating they couldn't engineer the batteries/etc to go elsewhere, and have designed a truly flat-folding rear seat setup like so many other vehicles offer (Rover, etc).
Now it means that material will need to be added to the rear cargo area to raise it up to be level with the folded-down rear seats.

DaveB · Feb 28, 2023

jeremy_matrix said:
Thanks for these pictures DCPU and DaveB.
Still frustrating they couldn't engineer the batteries/etc to go elsewhere, and have designed a truly flat-folding rear seat setup like so many other vehicles offer (Rover, etc).
Now it means that material will need to be added to the rear cargo area to raise it up to be level with the folded-down rear seats.

No problems
Keep in mind that some of us don't want the already very high loading lip to be even higher and level with the folded seats.
If the seat backs could fold as low as the existing rear floor then the would have had to lengthen the wheelbase or shorten the load space.

MrMike · Feb 28, 2023

beanohallett said:
8 .8 cm shorter in the commercial version than the Fieldmaster version.

The question is - how difficult is it to move the rear bench?? cant be that much of a job? obviously I'm not advocating cheating the tax...

View attachment 7795809

There was a thread on FB that it was reasonably easy to do, the holes and fixtures are all there under the seat and beside the C pillar on the floor

jeremy_matrix · Feb 28, 2023

DaveB said:
No problems
Keep in mind that some of us don't want the already very high loading lip to be even higher and level with the folded seats.
If the seat backs could fold as low as the existing rear floor then the would have had to lengthen the wheelbase or shorten the load space.

No, IA should have countersunk the seat backs into the floor, thus keeping the rear cargo floor as low as possible for loading as you mention. It's a moot point now, just frustrating that this rig has been engineered for cross-country travel, yet IMHO they seem to have forgotten to create a completely flat utility floor and largest flat load space possible.

DaveB · Feb 28, 2023

jeremy_matrix said:
No, IA should have countersunk the seat backs into the floor, thus keeping the rear cargo floor as low as possible for loading as you mention. It's a moot point now, just frustrating that this rig has been engineered for cross-country travel, yet IMHO they seem to have forgotten to create a completely flat utility floor and largest flat load space possible.

I guess they are assuming this version will fit that market but you guys won't be getting it at this stage.

jeremy_matrix · Feb 28, 2023

DaveB said:
I guess they are assuming this version will fit that market but you guys won't be getting it at this stage.

Exactly the model I want here in the USA!

Ever Pragmatic · Feb 28, 2023

beanohallett said:
8 .8 cm shorter in the commercial version than the Fieldmaster version.

The question is - how difficult is it to move the rear bench?? cant be that much of a job? obviously I'm not advocating cheating the tax...

View attachment 7795809

the attached photo shows the gap behind the N1 variant seat. It shows the rear gap which allows the seat frame to be moved back without having to remove trim. Of the two photos above, imagine the space behind the seat at the bottom of the C pillar. It from a production spec Grenadier. It seems like the whole seating frame and the composite shroud just slides over the floor pan. I’m even more confident that reclaiming the extra rear seat in the commercial version will not be that difficult. The only unanswered question is the top rear seating catch and how that can be moved without cutting or welding.

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Rear Bench Seat: Belstaff vs Station Wagon Models

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